Indeniable proof

[thrasher]

There's really several points that nail the coffin for me, and should for anyone else who has basic understanding of biology.

First, how do you explain the enormous amount of diversity found in the fossil record that are no longer extant? If several millions species have gone extinct over the past 3.5 billion years, what have filled their ecological roles? Over the 5 great extinction spasms that are evidenced both in fossil and geological records, roughly 95% of all species extant at the the time were wiped out. How were their ecological roles filled? If their roles were not filled, the ecosystems would have lost their ability to self sustain, and life on the planet right now would probably be reduced to bacterial activity, if at all.

Second, how could you possibly explain the enormouse developmental similarities between humans, apes, dogs, horses, bats, even insects. Looking only at how zygotes develop, the similarities are amazing. Zygotic development in the early stages are nearly identical across species. In fact, the development of the human brain versus chimps, bonobos, and gorillas are differentiated only by gene regulation. That's right, the human, chimp, bonobo, and gorilla brain are almost identical physiologically. Amazingly, all three of those primate relatives have enlarged Broca's and Wernick's areas, which are the areas of the brain responsible for language processing and production. Essentially, they have the ability to comprehend and respond to speech, those genes simply aren't turned on during development as they are in humans.

Finally, the genes that are ultimately responsible for controlling development in most organisms are are conserved across most higher species in the animal kingdom (from insects on up). Essentially, the core biological traits that allow us to develop and sustain life are the same across species. This implies that we all share some commonality, some beginning that has been sustained throughout our evolutionary history. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

[AlmostStock]

Originally Posted by PWRDbyUNCLEbens

For instance if you believe in Christianity, a big part of believing in it is that all who do not believe in the christian god go to hell? Like has already been said before how would a god let so many people stray from christianity even though he designed us? I find this to be the biggest flaw with christianity, and I'd like to know how you can whole heartedly be a christian?

You are correct. In the bible it does say that Jesus is the only way to the Father and to heaven. It also says that if you repent your sins and accept Jesus as your savior then you will be saved and go to heaven. You can do this at any time and still be "saved", just like the thief hanging on a cross next to Jesus did. Jesus even told this man he would see him in heaven.

So under this belief, Hitler could have repented on his death bed and still gone to heaven. (just like the thief did) Yet another person could live their entire life like Mother Teresa, giving to all humanity, but if they never professed Jesus is the Man then they go to hell. It is hard for me to believe a just god would actually do this.

[DGB454]

Choices. It all comes down to your free will and the choice you make.

Can't believe a just God could allow someone to go to hell because that person chose not to believe in his creator? I guess eventually you will find out if you made the right choice.

Hanging your hat on evolution as proof God doesn't exist? Eventually you will also find out if you made the right choice?

Believing in Christ reguardless of all the "proof" everyone throws at you? Even you will also eventually find out if you made the right choice.
.
.
.
.
I wonder which one was the right choice?
The anticipation is killing me.

[RickwithaTbird]

About me being on the fence, I wouldn't necessarily say that I am. I'm standing next to it, ready to climb it if need be. If I had the chance to speak with god, I would definitely ask him why he made things happen the way they have. Obviously as poweredbyunclebens noted, there are many flaws which have left a lot of people out of his religion. Before I agreed to devote myself to him I would like an explanation.

However, this is the explanation I have been given byt the christians I have spoken with who seem to have the most common sense.

They tell me that there will be a man who begins to perform miracles on earth and he will claim to be god. Many will believe him, but it will actually be Lucifer. Then there will be a TRUE second coming of Christ. He will give EVERYONE the opportunity to repent, because everyone deserves a chance. Those who still deny him will go to hell. Those who believe will go to heaven.


I am heavily counting on that. In this lifetime I don't see it reasonable to devote myself to a religion that I don't understand.

As a counter argument to both sides:

Religion is a cushion for those afraid of dying and thats it.

Evolution is a cushion for those afraid of not understanding everything.

I realize that. I'm not sure what the truth is. I don't think I should have to be. If there is an understanding and forgiving god, who will let a cold blooded murderer repent, I don't think he will send me to hell for using the brain he gave me. Apparently he already knows how our whole lives will pan out before we are even born, so WTF? Its like those who are going to go to hell were already doomed before they were born. I dont have any proof worthy of devoting my life to something I can't believe in. When God gives me proof of his existence, I will honestly do my best to understand and accept him. But at the same time, I'm not going to just accept it and devote myself to it if I don't agree.

That said, I believe that if he is a perfect god, I will have no qualms accepting him and his religion after the second coming.

I have seriously requested that if he is out there, he would please give me the will to believe. Because if I am his son, I must be too weak to believe without help. He hasn't given me any help yet. I simply don't have the ability to believe, and I know I can't be blamed for it.

SO I resort to looking at the facts, and simply asking why others DO believe. Nobody has ever said anything that I would agree with as being a good reason to believe. Which is why I involve myself in these debates. I want to hear it. But I don't.



ct91rs.... I highly respect your post. You aren't giving the same generic, ambiguous, pointless...points... that everyone else is making. You gave good arguments and I respect that. You've got true faith that doesn't come from the book. I like that because most people don't even understand the bible, yet they rely so heavily on it as their reason to believe. I think I have just as good of a chance of going to heaven as they do. They have no idea what God wants from them.

[ghetto7o2azn]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

The polar ice caps, the clouds, and 0 humidity would put a whole lot of water on this Earth.

wasnt the flood from rain suposidly... for there to be rain there has to be humidity for there to be humidity there has to be heat... if its from rain, then it already dismisses the melting polar ice caps..

but for fun anyways... so lets say the polar ice caps did melt.. it would be impossible for there to be 0 humidity because it would have to be freezing.. and the polar ice caps wouldnt melt if it was freezing right?... plus, if all this did happen, i highly doubt earth would be livable in the type of heat they would be in to melt the caps... how would he feed all the animals enough food, or even water??.. all of the water on earth would be salt water.... if the boat was stocked up with food, can u imagine how long it would take to feed hundreds of thousands of animals each day... so, he fit all those animals (said to be over 50,000 species) and fed all of them for 6 months.. plus, what in the world would melt the ice caps for 6 months and then all of a sudden freeze back up... doesnt make much sense

lets start before the flood... how would he gather ALL the animals into the ark... 50,000 x 2 = 100,000 animals at least of animals he probably had no clue of... how would he kno where to find them... and how long would it have taken him to find all of them?? if the boat could really hold all those animals... how many trees would he hav needed to build that boat... now lets say he could since he had "God's help" say he finishes the boat, and goes off to find the anmials... it would have taken him decades at least to travel to get the anmials and the boat would most likely deteriorate being made of wood and all by the time he collected them...

another thing... say he succeeded and all of this did happen... all the living land dwelling animals and insects would be in one area.. where would they go??.. what would they eat??... the carnivours would only have one option.. to eat the others... well then many of the species would be extinct since there would only be two... herbavours wouldnt have much to eat either... a flood filling the earth for 6 months wouldnt leave many of the plants they are used to eating... honestly... what is the likeliness of any of them actually surviving..

with all this said... i totally believe in noah.. and his big a** boat

*edit*
how long ago was it said to be again?

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by RickwithaTbird

About me being on the fence, I wouldn't necessarily say that I am. I'm standing next to it, ready to climb it if need be. If I had the chance to speak with god, I would definitely ask him why he made things happen the way they have. Obviously as poweredbyunclebens noted, there are many flaws which have left a lot of people out of his religion. Before I agreed to devote myself to him I would like an explanation.

Well I guess where some see flaws I most of the time don't see them as flaws. I see them more as mysteries yet to be revealed or discovered. Science has many of these also and people are working on uncovering these mysteries and continue to make discoveries. The workings of God are in that sense the same. "Seek and you shall find."

However, this is the explanation I have been given byt the christians I have spoken with who seem to have the most common sense. They tell me that there will be a man who begins to perform miracles on earth and he will claim to be god. Many will believe him, but it will actually be Lucifer. Then there will be a TRUE second coming of Christ. He will give EVERYONE the opportunity to repent, because everyone deserves a chance. Those who still deny him will go to hell. Those who believe will go to heaven.

Some things are still left to interpretation. I for instance don't believe that Christ will come and give everyone a second chance as you describe. I believe that that second chance won't be as easy as your first chance was. I believe that your second chance will come as the world is in the midst of a 7 year reign of satan(lucifer). It will be nearly impossible to be a Christian in those times. You won't be able to work or buy things for a lot of reasons as described in Revelations as well as other books in the Bible. Too much info to get into here.

That doesn't mean I am right in my interpretation. I'm not to worried about that time though. I won't be here.

I am heavily counting on that. In this lifetime I don't see it reasonable to devote myself to a religion that I don't understand.

Well hopefully it will work out for you. I really don't like to gamble on something I don't know that much about though. It may pay to study up on what you are betting on first before placing your bet.

As a counter argument to both sides:

Religion is a cushion for those afraid of dying and thats it.

I'm not afraid of dying. I'm more afraid of getting old. I guess it would serve me better to believe in the fountain of youth.

Evolution is a cushion for those afraid of not understanding everything.

I do believe in evolution also. I don't see how evolution negates God. I have always had a hard time understanding that line of reasoning.

I realize that. I'm not sure what the truth is. I don't think I should have to be. If there is an understanding and forgiving god, who will let a cold blooded murderer repent, I don't think he will send me to hell for using the brain he gave me.

The key word here is repent. In repenting there has to be a belief in the one you are repenting to.

Apparently he already knows how our whole lives will pan out before we are even born, so WTF? Its like those who are going to go to hell were already doomed before they were born.

Knowing the beginning and the end doesn't change the fact that we are responsible for the decisions we make in between.

I dont have any proof worthy of devoting my life to something I can't believe in. When God gives me proof of his existence, I will honestly do my best to understand and accept him. But at the same time, I'm not going to just accept it and devote myself to it if I don't agree.

There are several passages in the Bible I could quote like.."You ask for proof but none shall be given." There is also a passage that says.."Ask and you shall receive." Both were spoken by Jesus. Both were spoken during totally different circumstances. When He said the first He was speaking to those who didn't really believe He was the Son of God. The second was spoken to those who believed He was who He said He was.
When you ask for proof do you ask as one who truly wants to believe or as one who really wants no proof so you can continue on as you are?

That said, I believe that if he is a perfect god, I will have no qualms accepting him and his religion after the second coming.

As long as your interpretation is correct and you are here at that time then I am sure you will have no problem.

I have seriously requested that if he is out there, he would please give me the will to believe. Because if I am his son, I must be too weak to believe without help. He hasn't given me any help yet. I simply don't have the ability to believe, and I know I can't be blamed for it.

If you have seriously requested His help to believe then He has heard you. Don't be impatient in waiting. He will answer.

SO I resort to looking at the facts, and simply asking why others DO believe. Nobody has ever said anything that I would agree with as being a good reason to believe. Which is why I involve myself in these debates. I want to hear it. But I don't.

Facts are great. I look for them all the time too. Sometimes it makes my faith a little confusing at first when certain facts present themselves to me but usually things clear up in time and makes my faith even stronger.

ct91rs.... I highly respect your post. You aren't giving the same generic, ambiguous, pointless...points... that everyone else is making. You gave good arguments and I respect that. You've got true faith that doesn't come from the book.

I am going to have to go back and read some of his posts.

True faith should never come from a book. It should always come from the relationship you have with the one you put your faith in. The book is mearly a way to get to know the one your faith lies in.

I like that because most people don't even understand the bible, yet they rely so heavily on it as their reason to believe. I think I have just as good of a chance of going to heaven as they do. They have no idea what God wants from them.

Very true. You have just as good of chance to get to heaven as anyone else does.

I do truely hope you find out what the truth is for you. Not everyone does because they simply give up searching.

Later.

[blakscorpion21]

its god was real i would be happy to beleive in him and follow him. heaven is a much better ending than nothingness. but i just highly dought that he is out there. evolution does go against the bible. it proves that the earth is older than the bible says, along with pretty much everything in genesis.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

its god was real i would be happy to beleive in him and follow him. heaven is a much better ending than nothingness. but i just highly dought that he is out there. evolution does go against the bible. it proves that the earth is older than the bible says, along with pretty much everything in genesis.

That depends on your interpretation of it doesn't it?

[AlmostStock]

Originally Posted by DGB454

Choices. It all comes down to your free will and the choice you make.

Can't believe a just God could allow someone to go to hell because that person chose not to believe in his creator? I guess eventually you will find out if you made the right choice.

Hanging your hat on evolution as proof God doesn't exist? Eventually you will also find out if you made the right choice?

Believing in Christ reguardless of all the "proof" everyone throws at you? Even you will also eventually find out if you made the right choice.
.
.
.
.
I wonder which one was the right choice?
The anticipation is killing me.

If some nonChristians are right no one will ever "eventually find out". When we die we will become exactly what we were before we were conceived which was absolutely nothing, and just like then we'll have no consciousness of anything. But if Christians are right this brings up a good question. Since there is supposedly no pain or suffering in heaven, what about loved ones that didn't make it? If I was in heaven and knew my spouse, kids, parents, or whoever, were barbecuing away in hell, wouldn't I then be suffering? Maybe god just erases our memories so this doesn't happen, in which case we wouldn't really be our self any longer would we?

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

If some nonChristians are right no one will ever "eventually find out". When we die we will become exactly what we were before we were conceived which was absolutely nothing, and just like then we'll have no consciousness of anything. But if Christians are right this brings up a good question. Since there is supposedly no pain or suffering in heaven, what about loved ones that didn't make it? If I was in heaven and knew my spouse, kids, parents, or whoever, were barbecuing away in hell, wouldn't I then be suffering? Maybe god just erases our memories so this doesn't happen, in which case we wouldn't really be our self any longer would we?

I only have a minute before I have to leave for work. As long as this thread does not get closed because it's "boring" then I will get back after work to discuss. Great question.

Later

[blakscorpion21]

my interpretation of it is that its not real. lol

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

Since there is supposedly no pain or suffering in heaven, what about loved ones that didn't make it? If I was in heaven and knew my spouse, kids, parents, or whoever, were barbecuing away in hell, wouldn't I then be suffering?

All the more reason not to let that happen. It is in the end their choice though. Even if we didn't know once we got to heaven that they were in hell because our memory of them had been wiped clean we have a pretty good idea beforehand. Knowing that they may end up there really bothers me. I do as much as I can to make sure that doesn't happen.

Maybe god just erases our memories so this doesn't happen, in which case we wouldn't really be our self any longer would we?

Possibly he does...I'm not really sure what goes on in heaven. There are passages in the Bible that say "None will be given in marraige" in heaven. This says to me that things like relationships will be quite different. I believe we will recogonize each other as individuals like we do here on earth but our goals will be different. Also it says we will be rewarded in heaven for our deeds on earth. That can't happen if we loose our individuality we had on earth. What would be the point?
I don't believe God would erase our memories because that would take away our individuality which I believe He cherishes. If He didn't He would have made us all exactly the same. So where does that leave us if we go to heaven knowing loved ones are in hell? To be honest....I am not sure. I am sure however that it will be taken care of. It does prompt me to look into it some more until I am satisfied with an answer.

More study time is in my future I guess. I will come back with an answer that will hopefully satisfy both of us. Sorry I couldn't be more precise on that one but I am still learning myself.

Later.

[AlmostStock]

Thanks DGB for your honest response to questions I don't believe anyone can answer definitively with or without the bible. The mystery of all this stuff is what makes it such an interesting topic; anything but boring in my opinion.

[blakscorpion21]

it is a very interesting debate as long as everyone stays rational. ive really enjoyed all the replies so far.

[RickwithaTbird]

DGB... I enjoyed your response to my post. You said a few things I didn't think of.

There was one thing you asked; Am I asking for proof because I don't want any? ....no.

If God is real, I would feel bad for denying him. Which is why I won't do it. But I can't deny that I doubt it. However, that's precisely why I ask for help. I'm ready to believe, I just can't. I'd like to know that there is someone there looking out for me, who loves me, etc... I just don't believe it. And I can't make myself do it.


on another note... the main thing that pushes me from christianity is the attitude that comes from devout christians. And the atmosphere in churches. I feel like I'm watching a midnight "get rich quick" commercial. I think if do my best to respect other people, help other people, do the right thing, resist evil temptations (which I do really well), then I'm just as much as a model christian as anyone... besides the fact that I don't go to church and read the bible. And because of all the times I've asked for help, I think, maybe, just maybe God is lending me a helping hand, and showing me the right way to live. But I can't stand the attitude from big groups of christians. They make me uncomfortable, like they are a big cult, trying to lure me into their lifestyle because it's way better than mine.

I know there's no answer to that, but it wasn't a question. Just conversation. And I'm not saying all christians are like that, but it's just too hard to find people who aren't "afraid" of a life without god. And I don't want to be one of those people. I think you're supposed to be more enthusiastic about a life WITH god. Even though I'm not an example of that.