lotus esprit twin turbo vs Z06 corvette

[Kurtdg19]

Originally Posted by crayzayjay

I'm sorry, i dont buy that. #1, you underestimate how many cars are sold and driven throughout Europe. The population of the EU is almost 400m, thats more than the US. That doesnt necessarily mean more cars, in fact probably not, but its still a very sizeable market.
And #2, look at japanese companies, they sell staggering amounts of cars all over the world and the quality of their cars (generally speaking) is none the worse for it. It's quite the opposite. With economies of scale you make more cost savings which should be at least be partly invested into your product. I do appreciate that cars are cheap in the US but a lot of these cheap cars are cheap for a reason. I guess there are certain issues troubling US auto comps, such as health care and what have you, but still, a sub-standard product is a sub-standard product.

For one the european economy is a collection of many different economies summed into 1 'big economy'. Although europe's population may be greater than the us, like you said, their are probably still less cars in europe being driven than in the us. And the amount of cars being produced in us vs. europe is more than likely far greater than in europe. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree that its tougher to maintain quality when your producing more vehicles.

I don't see how the US auto industries cars are 'sub-standard'. Considering that every vehicle produced here has to go through a series of state and federal regulations, and meet specific 'standards' before they can even be certified. I'm sure that the standards in the US are equal, if not better, than the standards in just about every other country. And if this was the case, I could impose that european cars are 'sub-standard' to american cars. Do you see how silly that sounds?

Originally Posted by crayzayjay

And long may there be choice. I simply dont consider many of these american "sports cars" sports cars, if you see what i mean. But hey, if i lived in the US and couldnt stump up 50k, then id be glad to have the american alternatives available. But i wouldnt call them comparable. The emphasis on power i like, but I'd certainly be aware of their shortcomings.

Their are some european 'sports cars' that I would refer to as 'sports sedans'.
I'm not sure what you exactly mean by the term shortcomings, but i'm guessing it may be enfluenced by the reliability and maintence involved in large displacment engines... Which car would require more maintence and reliability, a Z06, or a espirit twin turbo? I know which one I would rather have if somthing were to go wrong.

[Jimster]

You are forgetting something- European makers sell also to Asia, Australia/New Zealand, Middle East, Africa and the Americas as well as Europe- American cars are rarely seen outside North America, so technically there is greater output all together in Europe, however it is spread across many makers, which tends to be why the quality of cars made in Europe is (usually) pretty damn good (Alfa Romeo (not the 147), older FIAT's and Lancia's are the exception here) American cars are also pretty damned basic in design- pushrods, live rear axles (although fast diminishing) etc......Are not uncommon on the cars, though Ford and the Chrysler Corp have switched to Independent suspension and Overhead Cams in thier newer cars for the most part, they seem no better or worse off for it........

ANYWAY- output of vehicles has nothing to do with quality control- Toyota Corolla- it's the worlds biggest selling car ever, how often do they let anybody down??? Not a lot, same with the Honda Civic, Nissan MAxima, Nissan Micra and pretty much every other JApanese made car-line ever made- and these people are literally supplying the whole world, so output is NOT an excuse.

I also hear that the Gen III V8's from Chevy are sometimes disastrous in some cases of reliability- ESPECIALLY when tuned- Holden found that one out the hard way on some HSV and Calais/SS V8 cars, I can't even remember what went wrong, but I have the article in a Wheels magazine somewhere in my 2002/2003 piles, so I'll dig it out.

NB: It could have been HOlden that messed up the V8, not Chevy, but it's suspicious either way...It'd be interesting to see if American sustomers had similar problems

[Kurtdg19]

Originally Posted by Jimster

You are forgetting something- European makers sell also to Asia, Australia/New Zealand, Middle East, Africa and the Americas as well as Europe- American cars are rarely seen outside North America, so technically there is greater output all together in Europe, however it is spread across many makers, which tends to be why the quality of cars made in Europe is (usually) pretty damn good.

Sounds closed minded to say that american cars are rarely seen outside north america.
Their is a greater output? Output is equal to production in relation to time, not how many places you can send your cars to...so technically thats incorrect.
Their are more than american cars produced in america mind you. There just happens to be an SIA automotive plant about 10miles from where I live.

Originally Posted by Jimster

ANYWAY- output of vehicles has nothing to do with quality control.

Have you ever worked on an assembly line before?

[Jimster]

It's not closed minded, because aside from the Jeep range and a few Chryslers, they aren't seen outside America, for sale new, thats a fact

[Kurtdg19]

That must explain why the Saab 9-5 (a division of GM) is considered to be the safest car in Sweden 03' conducted by the Folksam Insurance Company.
Another one of those 'sub-standard' american vehicles...

[Chris]

Everyone, remember, that a car well suited to one environment might be crap in another, and vice versa.
In the states, say, someone needs to drive from their house, to a main road, to a highway, and then take a few turns off the highway to get to work. Thats all that car really has to do. Why would they need more expensive, complicated, suspensions? People who drive like this are more concerned with smooth rides (live axles are good enough for this on highways).
Of course, around a curvy mountain road, said car would be absolute ass.

Different strokes for different folks.

[FYRHWK1]

Originally Posted by crayzayjay

$22k = approx £13k, which wont get you much in the UK. Ok, so at 22k its good VFM. But only for the idiots who “don’t know handling from the hole in their head”. As we've agreed these people are the majority so surely, from the bean-counting factory’s POV, modding potential isn’t the whole point of the car.. Call me a cynic but I find it hard to understand / believe that only a few cheap parts transform the whole car. Why wouldn’t they be fitted from the start? Then you’d have a $23k car that handles and goes well. Surely the bargain of all bargains...

The stamped pieces probably cost in the $1 range for GM to make, more or less depending on the size and amount of material to be made. Tubular ones from an aftermarket company cost in the $200 range for the smaller to $400 for the larger, more complicated ones, so you can see where the bean counters would have their field day.

It's not just a matter of the price, GM has to make a profit on all the pieces, you need to pay for the machines to have them made, the men to run them, and the cost of the material. It's not very cut & dry.

As to the amount of difference they make, well, this is where knowing and modifying the cars comes into play. I'm not going to go too far into it unless people are either going to actually listen, plus I don't want to hijack the thread, but to put it simply... The pieces holding the axle to the chassis on an IRS car are firm, they don't flex, bend or anything and that's good. On the camaro, they can get away with having stamped pieces that flex because there won't be catastrophic failure if the axle moves out of place.

The only things holding it to the chassis deflect and bend when placed under load,a nd I'm sure you know what a dancing rear axle will do to a cars ability to turn, which is where the massive oversteer stigma (and admittedly, problems) come in. Like I said, I can post some pictures and show what I mean, but I'm not going that far into it as I'm sure most don't care.

To Jimster, that obviously is a very biased article, the LS1/6 is an extremely reliable engine and has won many awards from this sites favored magazines. The aussie spec LS1 is the same as the US, since all of them are built here and shipped over to OZ. Here the worst problem we've had with them is some piston slap during cold starts, which as anyone will tell you is harmless and common with large clearance engines, a must with an aluminum block, but many made it out to be much worse then it really is.

[crayzayjay]

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

For one the european economy is a collection of many different economies summed into 1 'big economy'. Although europe's population may be greater than the us, like you said, their are probably still less cars in europe being driven than in the us. And the amount of cars being produced in us vs. europe is more than likely far greater than in europe. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree that its tougher to maintain quality when your producing more vehicles.

So what if it’s many different economies summed into one big one? The US is basically the same thing..
Besides, #1, As Jimmy pointed out, European car makers sell in large quantities in Asia, the Middle East, Africa etc.. and I’d bet my last dollar that many manymore European cars are sold in the US than US cars sold in Europe.
And #2, as I said before, Japanese car makers sell vast numbers of cars all over the world and set the highest manufacturing standards. Producing more vehicles doesn’t necessarily mean your quality has to suffer for it.

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

I don't see how the US auto industries cars are 'sub-standard'. Considering that every vehicle produced here has to go through a series of state and federal regulations, and meet specific 'standards' before they can even be certified.

I don’t mean those kinds of standards. I mean in terms of the car’s ability, if you like. American roads require easy progress of long distances. Consequently many American cars are still heavy, gas-guzzling beasts that can’t handle. And interior design and quality of materials used – although improving in new models – still leaves a lot to be desired. My uncle, vice president of a large bank - has had a series of American luxury cars that (I thought) had appalling interiors. Thank god he’s finally seen the light and traded in for a bmw.

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

I'm sure that the standards in the US are equal, if not better, than the standards in just about every other country. And if this was the case, I could impose that european cars are 'sub-standard' to american cars. Do you see how silly that sounds?

I assure you, the standards im talking about are not. On the whole, I believe the average European car is vastly superior to the average American car. However American cars are mostly much, much better vfm.

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

Their are some european 'sports cars' that I would refer to as 'sports sedans'.

... and some of these sports sedans are far superior drives than some of the so-called American sports cars..

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

I'm not sure what you exactly mean by the term shortcomings, but i'm guessing it may be enfluenced by the reliability and maintence involved in large displacment engines... Which car would require more maintence and reliability, a Z06, or a espirit twin turbo? I know which one I would rather have if somthing were to go wrong.

The shortcomings I was talking about refer to handling, which is surely more telling of a car’s ability than straight line pace. As for maintenance and reliability, American cars (relative to european cars) have large unstressed engines, so yes, theyre less likely to go wrong, but spare a thought for gas consumption..

[crayzayjay]

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

That must explain why the Saab 9-5 (a division of GM) is considered to be the safest car in Sweden 03' conducted by the Folksam Insurance Company.
Another one of those 'sub-standard' american vehicles...

Do you regard Saab as an American car? I dont. Has GM's ownership of Saab transformed them into the makers of these extremely safe cars?

[crayzayjay]

Originally Posted by FYRHWK1

The stamped pieces probably cost in the $1 range for GM to make, more or less depending on the size and amount of material to be made. Tubular ones from an aftermarket company cost in the $200 range for the smaller to $400 for the larger, more complicated ones, so you can see where the bean counters would have their field day.

It's not just a matter of the price, GM has to make a profit on all the pieces, you need to pay for the machines to have them made, the men to run them, and the cost of the material. It's not very cut & dry.

Yes, but correct me if im wrong GM is the largest auto maker in the world. Think of the colossal purchasing power! How many Camaros and other GM cars will be able to use these superior components? GM can get these parts for nothing and still make a profit, but as you say, the bean counters ruin it for the enthusiasts.

As long as the pictures you want to post arent too huge, go ahead and post them, im interested in seeing them.

[Kurtdg19]

Originally Posted by crayzayjay

So what if it’s many different economies summed into one big one? The US is basically the same thing..
Besides, #1, As Jimmy pointed out, European car makers sell in large quantities in Asia, the Middle East, Africa etc.. and I’d bet my last dollar that many manymore European cars are sold in the US than US cars sold in Europe.

so is that suppost to mean that european cars are better? I'm not clearly seeing your point.

Originally Posted by crayzayjay

I don’t mean those kinds of standards. I mean in terms of the car’s ability, if you like. American roads require easy progress of long distances. Consequently many American cars are still heavy, gas-guzzling beasts that can’t handle. And interior design and quality of materials used – although improving in new models – still leaves a lot to be desired. My uncle, vice president of a large bank - has had a series of American luxury cars that (I thought) had appalling interiors. Thank god he’s finally seen the light and traded in for a bmw.

Well I'm sorry if the standards im refering to aren't supporting your bias but once again I still hardly see your point. If american roads require easy progress of long distances, then why would they need to be made with a complicated and more expensive suspension setup when a more basic design can just as easily fullfil the same expectations on the same roads? Merely because european cars will require a more complex and costly suspension system to suit their environment doesn't mean their better. And a interior design of high quality (in materials and craftsmenship) to get you from point a to point b also doesn't mean that a car is better than another. Thats a matter of preference if you ask me. And the gas-guzzling comment...please. I can name a handful of european cars that are far worse in gas comsumption than many american vehicles.

Originally Posted by crayzayjay

... and some of these sports sedans are far superior drives than some of the so-called American sports cars..

I hope a sports sedan is a far superior drive than a sports car reguardless of where its made.

Originally Posted by crayzayjay

The shortcomings I was talking about refer to handling, which is surely more telling of a car’s ability than straight line pace. As for maintenance and reliability, American cars (relative to european cars) have large unstressed engines, so yes, theyre less likely to go wrong, but spare a thought for gas consumption..

I'll agree that on average a european car will have a more 'ideal' setup to handle in more situations than an average american car. They need to be considering the conditions they will face vs. the conditions that are faced here. I also believe (as you do ) that a straight line pace is a very weak argument when referring to a cars ability to perform. Not all cars are built to meet a high expectation to perform reguardless of where it was made.

Originally Posted by Chris

Everyone, remember, that a car well suited to one environment might be crap in another, and vice versa.
In the states, say, someone needs to drive from their house, to a main road, to a highway, and then take a few turns off the highway to get to work. Thats all that car really has to do. Why would they need more expensive, complicated, suspensions? People who drive like this are more concerned with smooth rides (live axles are good enough for this on highways).
Of course, around a curvy mountain road, said car would be absolute ass.

Different strokes for different folks.

isn't that the truth.

[crayzayjay]

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

so is that suppost to mean that european cars are better? I'm not clearly seeing your point.

This is your own point, how do you not get this? i replied to your argument that:
1. product standards fall as production levels increase, and
2. US produces more cars than Europe.

Remember writing this:

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

And the amount of cars being produced in us vs. europe is more than likely far greater than in europe. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree that its tougher to maintain quality when your producing more vehicles

?
I was just echoing Jimster's theme in informing you that European car makers probably make as many - or possibly even more - cars than US producers. Need we go further on this one?

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

Well I'm sorry if the standards im refering to aren't supporting your bias but once again I still hardly see your point

you're kidding, right? bias?
your understanding of "sub-standard" veered towards telling me that american cars have to meet "federal regulations" and "specific standards"... you dont think european cars have to meet certain specifications, such as emissions, or EuroNCAP??
meeting these government-set requirements/standards is taken for granted, after all, all cars must do this to be released so it cant be a factor within the comparison of two modern cars.

what do you think i mean by standard? when i say the standard of a product i mean how it performs, how well its put together, these sorts of criteria... not that it must have seatbelts and 4 wheels...

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

If american roads require easy progress of long distances, then why would they need to be made with a complicated and more expensive suspension setup when a more basic design can just as easily fullfil the same expectations on the same roads? Merely because european cars will require a more complex and costly suspension system to suit their environment doesn't mean their better.

ARGH!!!!
This whole comparison revolved around handling
you're repeating something everyone's already said!?!?!
Thats what i criticised, the (typical) american car's handling.
i did acknowledge that american roads do require a car that will go long, straight distances effortlessly... BUT, if you want to call your american "sports car" a sports car, then it had better handle. And some dont. At all. comprende?

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

And a interior design of high quality (in materials and craftsmenship) to get you from point a to point b also doesn't mean that a car is better than another. Thats a matter of preference if you ask me.

Yes, in a way it is only a matter of preference, but if you want to pass off your car as a "luxury car", it should have a luxury interior. And some of these so called american luxury cars have a shitty interior. Again the consumer wouldnt be happy, at least I wouldnt. I want my sports car to handle, and my luxury car to be luxurious.
Anyway, why shouldnt the consumer expect more? The quality of products used / design / interior features has sky-rocketed in (most) european cars over the last 10 years to the extent where a £7k VW is built like a mercedes benz inside (& out).

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

And the gas-guzzling comment...please. I can name a handful of european cars that are far worse in gas comsumption than many american vehicles.

no, not "please".. far from it... the point i made was very valid... Name your handful, so what? Compare the number of V8's or large displacement cars sold in the US to the amount sold in Europe. Ish no think so. The most common cars here are 4 pot hatches or 50mpg diesels.

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

I hope a sports sedan is a far superior drive than a sports car reguardless of where its made

errr.. what? isnt that supposed to be the other way around?

Originally Posted by Chris

Different strokes for different folks.

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

isn't that the truth.

Yes. So lets not compare us to euro handling, since we've so obviously agreed on that one

[Kurtdg19]

Originally Posted by crayzayjay

This is your own point, how do you not get this? i replied to your argument that:
1. product standards fall as production levels increase, and
2. US produces more cars than Europe.

I don't recall saying #1. Thats a faulty paraphrase. I said that its tougher to maintain quality when producing more vehicles. Those are two different statements. And if you think that it isn't then your seriously overestimating many factors on an assembly line.
As for #2, I do believe their are more vehicles produced in the US.

As for the rest of it, I'm not even going to bother replying to it. I'm not adding anymore fuel to this fire just so it can be chopped up and criticized to an extent beyond reasoning. Your obviously set on to your opinion on the matter, and i'm tired of reasoning some justification for mine. Lets just try and end this on as good of terms possible.

[Deakins]

Originally Posted by TatII

shouldn't that mean something? and i wouldn't exactly call that track small, i don't know how its spelled but its a famous japanese race track, its pronounced skuba circuit. i mean in a race, the faster more agile car wins am i not right?

No, when you have cars as equal in performance as here, it only means the car in front wins. It's hard to pull fast lap times if you have slower cars in front of you.

if the 575 or 550 was that much faster, it could've atleast kept up with the top 3 instead of being dead last.

I never said it was a lot faster, I simply said it was faster.
Put the two cars up agains each other, on one track, with one driver, on the same day, both the 550 and the 575 will lap a track faster.


And Kurtdg19, STFU! You don't know what you are talking about, period.

[FYRHWK1]

Originally Posted by crayzayjay

Do you regard Saab as an American car? I dont. Has GM's ownership of Saab transformed them into the makers of these extremely safe cars?

the new 9-3 is the best car saab has ever produced, and it rides on a GM designed chassis of amazing stiffness and design, so yes, saab has benefited from GMs ownership. They're recieving superior powertrains and chassis from it, and saabs' european interior designs (which i can't stand) are rubbing off on GM, as seen through the new cadillacs and the new malibu (a great car, no matter what anyone says about it's looks) as well as upcoming cars like the C6 corvette.

GM is fully capable of doing better, the reason they don't is simply because they have the unions to fight with and bean counters to get around. Holden designs have shown this, the new GTO's have very praised interior aesthetics and I've neve heard of anybody knocking their other designs. If they can do it there, they can do it here, and don't think they havent heard what people are bitching about.

First it was gas mileage, they've fixed that, and in many cases surpassed the imports, then it was reliability, they fixed that in a short time event hough the stigma lasts. Now it's interior design, sooner or later people will run out of things to complain about, changing things mid run isn't possible for a large company, the new generation of cars are coming out and they're going to do away with all of these complaints.

The shortcomings I was talking about refer to handling, which is surely more telling of a car’s ability than straight line pace. As for maintenance and reliability, American cars (relative to european cars) have large unstressed engines, so yes, theyre less likely to go wrong, but spare a thought for gas consumption..

My 94 bonneville gets between 28 and 32 MPG on the highway, and roughly 18 in town, excellent numbers compared to what my mothers old 94 accord got, about the same in town and at most 30 on the highway. It also rides nicer then her car ever did and was quite a bit more reliable. They cost nearly the same new, so why would you buy an accord over a bonneville? The interior? please, I hope you dont drive down the highway stroking the dash. I have no rattles nor squeaks and the ubttons all work, the gauges are easy to read and I have a massive amount of interior room. The seats are large and comfortable, and my ass usually can't feel the difference between GM and corinthian leather through my pants, so usually I only care about comfort.

Does the accord handle better then my car? dont know, never tracked either one, but the handling ability in incliment weather was a night & day difference, I would rather drive my RWD camaro then her accord. Both responded fine to emergency lane changes, so any other handling to me is useless as all it does is get me from point a to b.

I never said it was a lot faster, I simply said it was faster.Put the two cars up agains each other, on one track, with one driver, on the same day, both the 550 and the 575 will lap a track faster.

Faster then a Z06? do you even READ what you type before you post it?

to crazay:

http://www.fbody.com/jim/suspension/suspension01.jpg

Here's a link to an Fbody with all of the modifications I spoke of, to give you an idea of the geometry involved. The topmost bar is the panhard bar (PHB), it locates the axle and is what resists it from moving left to right. the silver bar with yellow brackets following the driveshaft sis the torque arm, it's the main support that keeps the axle in place when you're accelerating or braking, transmits forward thrust to the chassis. The yellow square bars are the lower control arms, they keep the axle from rotating in a clock fashion, and the yellow triangular brackets lowest in the picture are the subframe connectors.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/ga...25607Aphb3.jpg

Thats a picture of a tubular PHB compared to a stamped one, the LCAs, Torque arm and PHB are all just like it, and as you can imagine, adding any kind of force to that stamped piece would cause the walls of it to flex out and it would basically become useless. If the LCAs flex then the rearend begins to rotate like clock hands, causing rear steer problems. If the PHB flexes, then the axle begins to shift left or right, I've been in a car that bent the LCAs because the PHB flexed so bad that it allowed the axle to shift so far off to the left. If the torque arm flexes then there really isn't a handling loss, but going to an aftermarket torque arm allows me to chosoe how much squat or anti-squat I want, which is key with road holding and throttling out of a turn as i'm sure you know.

The subframe connectors dont even exist unless you have a convertible car, and event hen they're stamped pieces. there are basically 2 small frame sections on an Fbody that are held together by the rest of the body, and I'm sure you realize that not having any good, solid steel bracing would allow each subframe to flex the body in between and do whaever they want.

Even if these pieces cost $5 more a pop to produce, with the Fbody, up until the 4th gen, selling 200+K a year between the 2 models, thats over a million dollars more per year, and I highly doubt that tubular steel or aluminum only costs $5 more then the stamped steel pieces.

It's not the best track car ever made, but the Fbody has alot of potential most people don't realize is there because of the stock performance.