Indeniable proof

[PWRDbyUNCLEbens]

First of all I want to say this post is going great, and its interesting to hear so many different views. I can't spend all day quoting people, and I don't know quite enough about evolution to hang with the likes of some of you. I will however adress a few philosophical things about a few posts.

Originally Posted by Muscletang

If there is no God then we're all a mistake. I mean people, life, the planet, everything is just a big mistake that just happened. We're a result of a "luck of the draw" so to say.

I think you kind of proved how weak-minded (philisophically) a religious person is. Its almost as if you gave up thinking for yourself, and just found a quick answer in religion. Don't take it as a condiscending statement either just hear me out.

Even if we were hard to believe? How many billions upon billions of stars and planets could there be in the universe? Out of this uknown number why wouldn't there be atleast one that had our planets traits? Why is it so hard believe that these kind of odds could come to be on one planet?

Originally Posted by Sean

Calculating the odds and trying to convince someone with big numbers only serves to sway those sitting on the fence. What are the odds you winning every single state jackpot in the country in a row? If it happened, would you not collect your prize because the odds of it happening are too small? Have you ever though of winning every single state, charity, and international lottery, as well as discovering a diamond mine and an oil well in you backyard in a week? No? You probably wouldn't unless it happened to you. If it does, surprise, you're one lucky SOB!

The only difference is the human race was the lucky SOB but it seems like such slim odd to us that most people don't even believe we were that lucky (kinda weird).

It is my feeling that everyones mind is too weak to fathom the scope of the universe. It is this kind of ignorance in humans that turns people to religion IMO. It breaks down these kinds of unfathomable thoughts into answers.

Also, I think humans have become vein to think they're something special. Not special in the sense that we're lucky to have life on earth (which we certainly are by our standards), but to feel that they have to have some kind of divine purpose. Why would we have to be special? We COULD in fact just be a "lucky draw", but it takes a very open mind to accept the idea.

Originally Posted by Muscletang

So we have kingdoms of live, some that aren't related what so ever, that came from one cell. You'd think they would have found evidence of this by now.



It just depends on what you believe. DNA, the blue print for life. Either you believe there was a higher power that created it. Or you can believe that a electrical charge that was just right reacted with the molecules in water with certain elements to chemical react and through reactions and fusion blah blah blah BAM we have the blue print of life.



So we have a group of cells, expose them to light, and we get the eye? Interesting view there.

Every post if yours is pesimistic (sp?) which I think further supports my theory about the mindset of a religious person

I could really go on for days developing this thought, but this is a start.

Originally Posted by RickwithaTbird

I am absolutely firm on my own belief system, and I think any common sense having "God" would agree that I'm doing just fine.

I think this should be the model for any agnostic (believes in a "god or creator of some sort). Nice post IMO.

As for religious people I think the same applies to them. It is just a natural human trait to believe in such things as religion, so a common sense having God wouldn't care wether you were or were not.

I have an idea of how weak the human mind is, and when I realised this I ccame to the conclusion that some things would just have to remain unanswered. Therefore I need no religion. Everyone is different though, and I feel there is no wrong way to live as it it all "just happens"

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by Sean

What are the odds you winning every single state jackpot in the country in a row? If it happened, would you not collect your prize because the odds of it happening are too small? Have you ever though of winning every single state, charity, and international lottery, as well as discovering a diamond mine and an oil well in you backyard in a week?

I would think gee, that seems incredibly unlikely, almost too coincidential to be purely chance, I think I might have been set up, lucky me.

I'm not trying to convince you Sean. Muscletang wanted a figure, so I gave it to him. My point is that when you see how unlikely it is to have happened by pure chance, and you see how many specific conditions must be met, it seems likely that an outside force may have had an influence.

Can it be proven? No, but to me, it is the more logical answer. I don't simply believe in God because I was "taught" to or because it comforts me. My experiences and knowledge have led me to believe it is the most logical expanation to existence. Science is great, but it can only go so far.

Originally Posted by Sean

For someone who claims to understand science, you seem to know little regarding evolution. It's not a linear process. There are transitional species that have been found, which have flatly denied in this thread. I'm not just talking about some half-dinosaur/half-bird fossil either.

Ok, I have no concept about the theory of evolution, and neither do dozens of other evolutionists.

Former evolutionary paleontologist of Harvard, George Gaylord Simpson:

"This regular absence of transitional forms is not confined to mammals, but is an almost universal phenomenon, as has long been noted by paleontologists. It is true of almost all orders of all classes of animals, both vertebrate and invertebrate. A fortiori, it is also true of the classes, and of the major animal phyla, and it is apparently also true of analogous categories of plants"

and

"Possibility for such dispute exists because transitions between major grades of organization are seldom well recorded by fossils. There is in this respect a tendency toward systematic deficiency in the record of the history of life. It is thus possible to claim that such transitions are not recorded because they did not exist… "

I never intended to argue that the theory of evolution is completely invaild. I believe that to some extent evolution exists. You have evolution at the macroscopic and microscopic level, and only microscopic evolution has been shown to exist. At the current time the fossil record (science) does not substanciate the claims that evolution explains the propogation of life on our planet.

Evolutionist Richard Dawkins of Oxford University, wrote:

"The Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 600 million years [evolutionists are now dating the beginning of the Cambrian at about 530 million years], are the oldest in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history."

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by ct91rs

Ok, I have no concept about the theory of evolution, and neither do dozens of other evolutionists.

Former evolutionary paleontologist of Harvard, George Gaylord Simpson:

"This regular absence of transitional forms is not confined to mammals, but is an almost universal phenomenon, as has long been noted by paleontologists. It is true of almost all orders of all classes of animals, both vertebrate and invertebrate. A fortiori, it is also true of the classes, and of the major animal phyla, and it is apparently also true of analogous categories of plants"

and

"Possibility for such dispute exists because transitions between major grades of organization are seldom well recorded by fossils. There is in this respect a tendency toward systematic deficiency in the record of the history of life. It is thus possible to claim that such transitions are not recorded because they did not exist… "

I never intended to argue that the theory of evolution is completely invaild. I believe that to some extent evolution exists. You have evolution at the macroscopic and microscopic level, and only microscopic evolution has been shown to exist. At the current time the fossil record (science) does not substanciate the claims that evolution explains the propogation of life on our planet.

Evolutionist Richard Dawkins of Oxford University, wrote:

"The Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 600 million years [evolutionists are now dating the beginning of the Cambrian at about 530 million years], are the oldest in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history."

You're joking, right? Please tell me that you are joking. Just so everyone knows, the first passage telling of the lack of evidence in the fossil record was published in 1944


The Cambrian period you speak of is where the major evolutionary expansion occurred. It also just so happens that the fossils you speak of from that era were preserved in something known as the burgess shale. Oddly enough, the conditions were just right such that an entire underwater ecosystem was essentialy left intact, waiting for us to discover. Of course it seems as though they were just planted there, because they were. The conditions required for preservation are very exacting, so why would this be a surprise that fossils from before and after are not available as readily. And another thing, I would really like to see the context you stole the Dawkins quote from, considering Richard Dawkins is one of the most highly respected and leading authorities on evolution in the world.

In science, we don't consider an "outside force" unless there is any sort of evidence. In fact, any sort of evidence doesn't come close to cutting it. It needs to be able to be tested, otherwise it isn't even worth talking about. Such is the concept of god. As far as I am concerned, the chair that I am sitting in right now is just as likely to have created our world as the god that so many religions worship did. If we're going to have an argument, fine, but there at least needs to be some sort of logic at work.

[AlmostStock]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Like I said the big bang is a joke. All the matter in the universe was balled up into something the size of a pen dot and it exploded. Where did it come from?
Ok, there was a big swarm of gases and they curled up and exploded. Where did the gases come from?
Science says there's a cause and effect. What caused the big bang? How did this cause come to be?

The May 2005 National Geographic magazine had a good article about the big bang. Some cosmologists are now considering that the big bang that started our universe was just one event in a cycle that continually repeats itself over and over, even with several "universes" existing and evolving at the same time. It makes sense to me. Just like all life, stars and galaxies are born, develop and change over time and die. Why shouldn't universes follow the same pattern?

If it is so hard to believe that the cosmos just "is" and always was, why is it so easy to believe that God (which by definition must be even greater and more spectacular than the cosmos) "is" and always was?

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by thrasher

You're joking, right? Please tell me that you are joking. Just so everyone knows, the first passage telling of the lack of evidence in the fossil record was published in 1944

Yet, eminently relevant

I can make my words big too.

You are absolutely right. But as you noticed, I followed that with the quote by Dawkins from 1996, showing how there has been virtually no change in the lack of evidence.

Originally Posted by thrasher

And another thing, I would really like to see the context you stole the Dawkins quote from, considering Richard Dawkins is one of the most highly respected and leading authorities on evolution in the world.

Ah I do love it, what he said doesn't fit your ideal, so I must have stole or misquoted it, right?
At least Dawkins is able to admit the weaknesses of his position.

Quoted from, The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p.229, by Richard Dawkins.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by ct91rs

Ah I do love it, what he said doesn't fit your ideal, so I must have stole or misquoted it, right?
At least Dawkins is able to admit the weaknesses of his position.

Quoted from, The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p.229, by Richard Dawkins.

I'm going to agree with misquoted. Perhaps you would like to hear more of what Dawkins said?

Religious people split into three main groups when faced with science. I shall label them the "know-nothings", the "know-alls", and the "no-contests"

There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?

It is almost as if the human brain were specifically designed to misunderstand Darwinism, and to find it hard to believe..

Explain to me how you can use Dawkins quotes as evidence for creation and expect to be taken seriously?

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by Sean

I'm going to agree with misquoted

Oh really? You must not be familiar with the material. Maybe if you read his book you would know that is a direct quote.

Originally Posted by Sean

Explain to me how you can use Dawkins quotes as evidence for creation and expect to be taken seriously?

I am showing that even a prominant supporter of evolution admits that they are major flaws in the theory.

What you quoted from Dawkins isn't related to my piece. I was simply proposing evidence from Dawkins that evolution at the "macroscopic" level is not a proven fact, unlike what most people assume.

Evolution has been proven to explain microscopic changes. That does not however extrapolate to fully explain the development of life. Evolution on the "macroscopic" level isn't backed by science, and requires as much faith of the unknown as someone's belief in God.

Saying such about evolution would be equivalent to saying General Relativity explains the movement of sub-atomic particles.

[RickwithaTbird]

There were a few inspiring posts, and I believe the strongest arguments are still coming from the "pro evolution" side.

By nature I am a middle man. A negotiator. That's because I am indecisive. Let me toss out some radical idea.

Maybe God decided to change his creatures every once in a while. Has anybody here ever brainstormed? You go from one idea to the next, and occasionally you make this huge advancement which may appear as if you skipped a few steps. Maybe God skipped a few steps sometimes. Hey... gap in evolution.

Or there is the more logical explanation... maybe the exacting standards for fossilization weren't met at every single step of the way during evolution, and along the last 600 million years.... maybe we are missing a thing or two. Some may find it hard to believe in evolution rather than an almighty god who was just chillin in outer space until one day he decided to create earth strategically in such a way that would provide evidence of a big bang just to fool us. Well.... I find it hard to believe that you folks think we should have accounted for 600 million years of evolution already. How long have we had technology? I mean, shit... we've only had electricity for 200 years. We havent even had playstation for 10 years yet, and you think we should have already filled in every page of the "evolution book". Come on. It takes time. I bet some people would find it hard to prove they graduated from kindergarten. Sometimes things get lost. And when you've got 600 million years worth of time to examine, it's a challenge. The puzzle isn't complete yet but there is a very clear picture.

I'm not a scientist, but I have passed a few science classes. The big bang theory has very strong evidence. Such as all galaxies, stars, plantes, what have you... all seeming to be traveling away from a central location. The ones further from it are more spread out, and the ones closer to it are more bunched up. think about dropping a handful of marbles on the floor. They will spread out the further they go. Just like the universe. That's some pretty damn good evidence.

OR.. God made us, because he did.


I don't know. Both arguments seem strong.

counter arguments?

All the matter in the universe balled up into something the size of a thimble? Yea right. That could never happen in a universe comprised of such simple things to explain like black holes, worm holes, supernovas.... I mean, no way this could be. Our universe is too simple for that. And besides, God was just chillin and one day decided to make the universe. Its the obvious answer.

Please, use your imagination and explain to me, the guy who knows nothing about religion... Where did god come from? What was he doing before the first day? Was he around? What was before the first day? Nothing? What was where we are? Was there not even space? Was there no time? Did time actually start? Did space come out of nowhere? I don't believe the bible answers these questions. If it does please provide the quotes.



If god came down and provided undeniable proof that he was God and christianity was real, then I would apologize to him for this post, pick up a bible and devote myself to him. ANd I would hope and pray that I find some logic in this religion because I havent found much yet.

[blakscorpion21]

if you understand fully the concept of evolution you would beleive it. and the conditions of the planet are not perfect because we are here. we are here because they were perfect. there are trillions of stars in the universe and more chunks of rock that could be formed into a planet than can be imagined. dont you think its not that astronomical that one of them was put into the right orbit? and because of theese conditions you have biological compounds that form just like any chemical compound and they have their own unique properties. they tend to form together and form more compleex compounds. theese eventually form into things such as ribosomes and what not and eventually form into rna and dna respectiveley. and this dna has special properties and it evenyually assimilates other biological molecules to form a cell. cells are not that complex if you know about them. and when cells reproduce there is always variation (one of the most important laws of evolution) and those who change for the better have a better chance to survive. and they keep getting bettet and better and the weak are weeded out because if you cant survive you cant pass your bad traits on to your offspring. and eventually cells group together because it is beneficial to them and you get multicelled organisms and so on and so fourth.

and there are several remains of primates and hominids that can trace humans back to apes. if you watched or read about science you would know that. just because we think doesnt mean we are special and have a soul. monkeys think do they have a soul too? do they go to heaven? heaven is just something created because people donmt want to facwe the thought of their own demise. can you imagine not existing? no i cant either no one can comprehend that. thats why an afterlife is so enticing.

if the chanses opf the big bang are so slim then what are the chances of a being m ore complex then anyone can imagine with the power to create and do anything. just pops up and starts creating the earth. where did this god come from?

there are several instances in the bible that are so obsurd i dont know how anyone could beleive them. the bible says the earth is 6000 years old does anyone in the world beleive that? and in the beginning if their was only adam eve and their children how did they rreproduce? that much imbreeding would be impossible to sustain a species anyone knows that. and noas ark do you honestly beleive that you can fit all those animals on a boat?
and theres not enough water on this earth to fill it up to the mountains and if there was there would be way too much water vapor in the air to breath.

and they say jesus was so great because he died for everyone. wouldnt you die just as quick to save the whole world, to even save someone you love. dont get me wrong he was a good teacher and his teachings helped hold the world together. but thatts all he was a good man not a god. and if god was so great why would he give you no proof of his existence and then let you go to hell cause you didnt beleive a book. if you truly loved someone as supposedly god does, would you let them suffer eternally no matter what they done. and what about people born in africa they automatically go to hell and theres not a damn thing they can do about it. they dont even have a chance to learn it and they die and go to hell because god made them be born knowing that they would eventually go to hell so why bother.

and evolution is a scientific fact and is not nearly as flawed as religion. look at the diffrences in humans black, white, chineese so fourth. did one day back in the beginning people just started having diffrent colored children? no all humans originated in africa so in the beginning they were all black. and as some humasns migrated north they lost the black pigment and gained more fat than their black relatives who needed black skin to absorb harmful uvs in the tropics. and white people needed more fat to stay warm and didnt need pigment cause the sun wasnt bright where they came from. thats evolution how can you deny it?

the bottom line is evolution is backed up by proof religion is backed up by a book. anyone who supports religion can only try (in vein) to disprove science even when the facts are staring them in the face, because they have no proof behind their cause.

the number of people who believe in a religion is dropping every day. heck i used to be a pretty devout christian when i was younger but i got tired of wasting my life on a fairy tale.

[blakscorpion21]

this is really deep for a car discussion board. i am impressed with somre of you guys knowlege of science and what not.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

a soul. monkeys think do they have a soul too? do they go to heaven? heaven is just something created because people donmt want to facwe the thought of their own demise. can you imagine not existing? no i cant either no one can comprehend that. thats why an afterlife is so enticing.

Einstein himself said there was an afterlife and he used science to back up his cause. He said energy can neither be created nor destoryed and humans are nothing but a big glob of energy. He said there was an afterlife of some kind for us.

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

where did this god come from?

He says himself he's the beginning and the end.

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

there are several instances in the bible that are so obsurd i dont know how anyone could beleive them. the bible says the earth is 6000 years old does anyone in the world beleive that?

What verse is it exactly that says the Earth is 6000 years old? I'm just curious because I don't remember it.

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

and in the beginning if their was only adam eve and their children how did they rreproduce? that much imbreeding would be impossible to sustain a species anyone knows that.

If you read it says their children went off and "found a spouse" now this is heated debate. Many say they were just created for Adam and Eve's children while other's say there were several Adam and Eve's that were created after the first ones.

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

and noas ark do you honestly beleive that you can fit all those animals on a boat?
and theres not enough water on this earth to fill it up to the mountains and if there was there would be way too much water vapor in the air to breath.

The polar ice caps, the clouds, and 0 humidity would put a whole lot of water on this Earth.

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

and they say jesus was so great because he died for everyone. wouldnt you die just as quick to save the whole world, to even save someone you love. dont get me wrong he was a good teacher and his teachings helped hold the world together. but thatts all he was a good man not a god.

If that's what you want to believe then go ahead.

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

and if god was so great why would he give you no proof of his existence and then let you go to hell cause you didnt beleive a book. if you truly loved someone as supposedly god does, would you let them suffer eternally no matter what they done.

It says in the Bible that God doesn't condem anyone or send them to Hell. People send themselves to Hell. We are given a free will to make our own decesions. We can choose to believe God exist and the Bible is right, or we can say it's all a fairy tale.
If a person goes to Hell it's because they rejected God and had no faith.

As for no proof for his existence, it depends who you talk to.

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

and what about people born in africa they automatically go to hell and theres not a damn thing they can do about it. they dont even have a chance to learn it and they die and go to hell because god made them be born knowing that they would eventually go to hell so why bother.

Missionaries?

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by RickwithaTbird

until one day he decided to create earth strategically in such a way that would provide evidence of a big bang just to fool us.

I believe in God, and I am a Christian. I also happen to believe in the Big Bang. I don't believe the Earth is only a couple thousand years old, as some Creationists do. As I have previously stated, I have not found compelling scientific fact to believe that the theory of evolution as presented by Charles Darwin explains the origin and propagation of life. If such evidence existed, I would ascribe to the theory.

I believe that God has many attributes which include honesty, integrity, and richousness. I believe He is someone of logic and reason. I think there very well may be a scientific explanation, at some deep, possibly yet to be understood level, for everything that happens. I don't believe God would deceive those he created. He has given us science as a tool to understand his creation. The answers we get from the scientific disciplines, therefore, in no way negate the existence of God.

Originally Posted by RickwithaTbird

I'm not a scientist, but I have passed a few science classes. The big bang theory has very strong evidence.

You're absolutely right, it is an eminently testable theory, and has been proven correct in oodles of ways, unlike evolution.

Originally Posted by RickwithaTbird

That's some pretty damn good evidence.
OR.. God made us, because he did.

You honestly profess that you're on the fence, eh?

Originally Posted by RickwithaTbird

And besides, God was just chillin and one day decided to make the universe. Its the obvious answer.

aaaaa... ya, that's an unbiased presentation of the argument, no sarcasm found.

Originally Posted by RickwithaTbird

Where did god come from? What was he doing before the first day? Was he around? What was before the first day? Nothing? What was where we are? Was there not even space? Was there no time? Did time actually start? Did space come out of nowhere? I don't believe the bible answers these questions. If it does please provide the quotes.

These questions I will attempt to answer, in order, though I doubt it will be to your satisfaction. Note: You are delving into things that the human mind cannot fully comprehend. Everything we know is finite, it has a beginning and an end. This does not hold for the universe (infinite) as well as the proposed aspects of God.

1. God has always existed.
2. We do not know.
3. Again, He had always existed.
4. Nothing, prior to the Big Bang, at least in relation to our known universe.
5. Yes
6. There was nothing were we are, as the space we occupy was not in existence. This goes for both believers, athiests, and agnostics.
7,8,9. No, space, time, and matter all came into existence at the time of the Big Bang, so space did not exist. (Getting into the incomprehensible) again this applys for believers, athiests, and agnostics.
10. That depends. A Christian believes that God created space, a prominant majority of non-believers propose that space came out of a point of singularity that contained infinite mass and no volume, yes this does seem paradoxical, but it is predicted by the theory of general relativity.

Many people are (including Christians) are troubled by the book of Genesis. It says that God created everything in seven days. This post is already too long, and I will not get into the details of why the story in Genesis is in harmony with the scientific record. If you wish to investigate further please see, "The Genesis Question" by Dr. Hugh Ross, it is a very compelling read.

[PWRDbyUNCLEbens]

I would think it would be extremely difficult to be a devout christian and still believe in science. How do you do so ct91rs?

For instance if you believe in Christianity, a big part of believing in it is that all who do not believe in the christian god go to hell? Like has already been said before how would a god let so many people stray from christianity even though he designed us? I find this to be the biggest flaw with christianity, and I'd like to know how you can whole heartedly be a christian?

Anyone who believes in an almighty god would certainly think god would not make that kind of mistake with his design, and take in to account that not everyone would be exposed to christianity. WRONG. It is so hard for me to believe that a logical being wouldn't realise such a HUGE flaw. A lot of people must be lying to themselves if they can't see that.

Religion is not neccesarily a bad thing, but it troubles me to think that so many people don't even bother to think for themselves. I think its fear that keeps most poeple bound to a religion. Even for me I question wether I should be worried about going to hell. I find myself having to reassure myself, and if I wasn't born around a religion I wouldn't have to do so (meaning its certianly not some gut spiritual feeling.)

[blakscorpion21]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Einstein himself said there was an afterlife and he used science to back up his cause. He said energy can neither be created nor destoryed and humans are nothing but a big glob of energy. He said there was an afterlife of some kind for us.

glob of matter not so much energy. our cells create energy to power movement and the processes of life. but we are far from a glob of energy.

He says himself he's the beginning and the end.

what kind of explanation is that? it makes no sense. beggining and end thats just something the writers of the bible put to try to explain why he is and really dosent tell you anything.

What verse is it exactly that says the Earth is 6000 years old? I'm just curious because I don't remember it.

it doesnt say it specifically but taking in to account all the events of the bible its roughly 6000 years. wow i guess dinosaurs never existed. did god place false clues to lead us away from him so he could punish us?


If you read it says their children went off and "found a spouse" now this is heated debate. Many say they were just created for Adam and Eve's children while other's say there were several Adam and Eve's that were created after the first ones.

see right there a serious flaw in the bible that they tried to make up for by making something up.

The polar ice caps, the clouds, and 0 humidity would put a whole lot of water on this Earth.

still not near enough.

If that's what you want to believe then go ahead.

u didnt really answer the question. would you or would you not give up your lif to save the lives of every person on the earth.

It says in the Bible that God doesn't condem anyone or send them to Hell. People send themselves to Hell. We are given a free will to make our own decesions. We can choose to believe God exist and the Bible is right, or we can say it's all a fairy tale.
If a person goes to Hell it's because they rejected God and had no faith.

if you so loved someone would you want to see them suffer. im not saying he sends us there so to speak i know we supusodley send ourself there but youd think people who didnt beleive god would show them that he is real and give them a chance to know him instead of making them go against all theese things that say he isnt real . if you were a parent and you had a child who didnt think you were there real father would you let them walk into a house that was on fire?

As for no proof for his existence, it depends who you talk to.

where id like to see that one.

Missionaries?

yea like those work. but what about the people he knows missionaries will never get too. why create them and let them go to hell because you created them in a bad spot?

[blakscorpion21]

sorry that might seem like one big quote but i put stuff in it, all the sceptical stuff. im not sure how to post the seperate quotes.