Is there a God??

[Joseph1082]

Well... Those of you may not be convinced by the Bibel, like I said, how can you not be convinced by Science??? Does anyone have kids? Ok, So you get busy one night, and cells from you enter your woman, unite with one of her cells, and a new life starts to grow inside her... How can yoiu explain this?????? "Oh, uh, it just happens." wrong answer. I think I said before, Science is still having trouble explaining reproduction. Cells start to multiply and form a human because they have and follow the blueprint for one, ok, if these cells have no brain so to speek, how can they follow the blueprint better than our best construction team? "oh, it's nature" Cop out, Nature is just a replacement Word for God, yet secular scientists have no trouble using it when they can explained something. And where does Consciousness come from?? It's just there? Ok, so a woman can build a biological machine in her womb, and I can build an Android (not really) in my basement? Yet my machine will never have consciousness. Figure these out!

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by Joseph1082

Well... Those of you may not be convinced by the Bibel, like I said, how can you not be convinced by Science??? Does anyone have kids? Ok, So you get busy one night, and cells from you enter your woman, unite with one of her cells, and a new life starts to grow inside her... How can yoiu explain this?????? "Oh, uh, it just happens." wrong answer. I think I said before, Science is still having trouble explaining reproduction. Cells start to multiply and form a human because they have and follow the blueprint for one, ok, if these cells have no brain so to speek, how can they follow the blueprint better than our best construction team? "oh, it's nature" Cop out, Nature is just a replacement Word for God, yet secular scientists have no trouble using it when they can explained something. And where does Consciousness come from?? It's just there? Ok, so a woman can build a biological machine in her womb, and I can build an Android (not really) in my basement? Yet my machine will never have consciousness. Figure these out!

Um...I don't know where to start. Yes, there are inexplicable things in the world, but at least science tries to explain or understand them in systematic ways, rather that just attribute everything we don't yet understand to "god." That is a cop out if I have ever heard one.

I could go through step by step what happens when a baby is conceived, all of the way to the molecular level, the only thing that isn't explained is how life actually begins, or what makes objects animate, which is a question that cannot be answered by science or religion.

Consciousness is simply a result of evolution, plain and simple. We are counscious and aware because our problem solving ability and cognitive processes allowed us to better extract resources and cope with harsh environments, as well as predators, which selected for even more intelligence. It is adaptive because it allows humans to expand our ecological role, as cognitive processing gives us a much wider range of possibilities, and thus better chances to survive and reproduce. A snail doesn't have consciousness, but it is still alive. And a chimpanzee does have consciousness, not the same level we do, but it also allows them to solve problems and use tools and hunt in groups.

Summary: Science allows constant revision and testing to further our understanding of the world around us. Religion allows blind faith based on beliefs from thousands of years ago. Which makes more sense?

[Prelewd]

Originally Posted by DGB454

As far as invalid letter is concerned. Christians beleive that even though the Bible was written by man it was inspired by God. The books included in the Bible are God inspired. If we believe that God inspired the Bible then we believe that God directed the putting together of the Bible. Why would he allow something false to be put in his word? We believe He is all powerful so why wouldn't we believe he could make sure His word is accurate?

The free will that god 'gives' you..

[DGB454]

Yes...The freewill to listen to Him and obey Him.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by thrasher

Um...I don't know where to start. Yes, there are inexplicable things in the world, but at least science tries to explain or understand them in systematic ways, rather that just attribute everything we don't yet understand to "god." That is a cop out if I have ever heard one.

You speak as if religious people ignore science. We use science to understand the world God made.

Consciousness is simply a result of evolution, plain and simple. We are counscious and aware because our problem solving ability and cognitive processes allowed us to better extract resources and cope with harsh environments, as well as predators, which selected for even more intelligence. It is adaptive because it allows humans to expand our ecological role, as cognitive processing gives us a much wider range of possibilities, and thus better chances to survive and reproduce. A snail doesn't have consciousness, but it is still alive. And a chimpanzee does have consciousness, not the same level we do, but it also allows them to solve problems and use tools and hunt in groups.

Are you speaking of reasoning or consciousness?

Summary: Science allows constant revision and testing to further our understanding of the world around us. Religion allows blind faith based on beliefs from thousands of years ago. Which makes more sense?

Religion does allow for blind faith but that doesn't mean we are blind to facts.

[Prelewd]

Originally Posted by DGB454

Yes...The freewill to listen to Him and obey Him.

That doesn't really sound like free will to me.. That sounds like you can do what you want, as long as you do what god wants.

free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=free%20will

What you described is NOT free will.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by Prelewd

That doesn't really sound like free will to me.. That sounds like you can do what you want, as long as you do what god wants.

free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=free%20will

What you described is NOT free will.

We don't have to listen or obey. We choose to.

[Joseph1082]

Ok, thrasher, obviously you don't have to agree with me, but if you read a lot of my posts here on AF you will get to know me, and realize I AM a scientist true to form. Consciousness is NOT explain by science, i.e. as I already posted, waht makes us different from AI... well, we don't know, science doesn't know. Consciousness is not a result of our evolution... I think you are refering to reasoning. Nothing can expalin what makes a creature do what it does, unless you want to say we are all machines and are programmed?? is that the answer. You said it yourself, I can tell you what happens when a baby is born, except how life actually starts... there, you said exactly what I was trying to say. Science, Religion, and Philosophy are pretty much different forms of the same thing, all seek to answer the unanswerable questions, just all by different methods... A scientists says we are hear by scientific thoery, big-bang, matter, etc... religion says we are here by whatever God(s) you believe in... Philosophy says, are we even really here? Instead of being closed-minded you can realize that aspect from all three fields of thought can be applied to explain the universe.
I'm sorry I do not believe that life is a random occurence made up of electronic impulses and such.

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by DGB454

Are you speaking of reasoning or consciousness?

There really isn't a difference. Consciousness simply means being aware of our own existence. Humans are not unique in this aspect; chimps, bonobos, and gorillas all exhibit characteristics that indicate they are aware of being in existence. Reasoning is simply applying logic to solve problems, which chimps and bonobos are also very capable of. They set traps, manipulate tools in a specific way, and have very advanced recognition and memory capabilites. Evolution has provided both them and us with these capabilites.

Originally Posted by Joseph1082

Instead of being closed-minded you can realize that aspect from all three fields of thought can be applied to explain the universe.
I'm sorry I do not believe that life is a random occurence made up of electronic impulses and such.

I'm not close minded to philosophy or religion, I just think that most religious beliefs are BS. I used to be a devout catholic, as well as an ex-philosophy major, and science simply explains the world the best. Like I said before, there is some "force" that drives the chaos of the universe into some semblance of order, something that makes life living, but creation stories and water turning into wine? Nope, sorry.

If counsciousness isn't a product of evolution, why does it exist, and why other primates possess it?

[Joseph1082]

Your logic is flawed, ok, animals don't have reasoning, it is what seperates us from them... how can an ex-philosophy major not know this, Animals operate on Instint, Humans on Logic, that is what makes us human. Animals may be able to solve certain puzzles, like a Rat in a maze, but tere is no rational thinking behind it... the do not actually think, i.e. think about the consequences of their actions, they operate on impulse alone. Aniamls are not Sentient beings, aka Intelligent life.
What I'm referring to is the origins of life, what makes life tick. Nothing that you or science can explain. What actually causes a cell to produce an identical copy of itself, hmmm? Biological programming, I can't accept that. What is the soul, like I said, I don't think that ME, my essence is simply the biological programming and electric impulses of my brain, I beleive there is something more to life.

[Prelewd]

Originally Posted by Joseph1082

What actually causes a cell to produce an identical copy of itself, hmmm? Biological programming, I can't accept that.

Just because you "can't accept that" doesn't make it any less true:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/hum...oduction10.htm
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/...okmeiosis.html

Perhaps you are in denial that life could possibly be meaningless and simply circumstantial?

In a sense, we are all highly advanced robots, in that EVERYTHING on earth is made of the same building blocks (protons, neutrons, electrons), and if one could learn to manipulate atoms to produce what they want, one could actually create life... in theory.

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by Joseph1082

Your logic is flawed, ok, animals don't have reasoning, it is what seperates us from them... how can an ex-philosophy major not know this, Animals operate on Instint, Humans on Logic, that is what makes us human. Animals may be able to solve certain puzzles, like a Rat in a maze, but tere is no rational thinking behind it... the do not actually think, i.e. think about the consequences of their actions, they operate on impulse alone. Aniamls are not Sentient beings, aka Intelligent life.
What I'm referring to is the origins of life, what makes life tick. Nothing that you or science can explain. What actually causes a cell to produce an identical copy of itself, hmmm? Biological programming, I can't accept that. What is the soul, like I said, I don't think that ME, my essence is simply the biological programming and electric impulses of my brain, I beleive there is something more to life.

Go pick up any intro to Physical Anthropology or Primatology book, and you will quickly discover that several primates are indeed capable of reasong.

All of life is "biologically programmed", including humans. We are hardwired from the day we were born, and that soul that you seem to speak of is merely your capability to reflect on things; it is just a product of our evolutionary. Humans are no different than animals, and no better. We are subject to the exact same natural forces that every other life form is.

[Prelewd]

Yea.. just to back up thrasher a little bit..

At my college we have a chimposium, with 4 different chimps. All 4 of them know sign language, but learned at different times. The one that learned first taught the others new signs that the humans didn't teach them. No rational thinking? How do you explain one chimp teaching the other chimp something that a human taught them? What motiv drives that so called 'impulse'?

[DGB454]

I'm not going to argue conciousnes vs. reasoning. Mostly because I do believe in a certain amount of evolution. I do believe that what seperates us from animals is our capacity to learn and our soul. I am also not going to argue the existance of the soul because it's a dead end road. Either you believe or you don't.

I will go back to a question asked earlier. Where did the universe come from? I understand that science has no real proof on it's origins and all it has is guesses or "theories". Some of them are facinating but in the end they are guesses. Aren't you the least bit curious how it all began? I am.
Science is a great tool but there are certain things it will never do. Create life from nothing and explain how all things started from nothing.

As a Christain (and I wasn't always a Christain) I think science is a great thing. Science and religion are not opposed to each other. If they were then you wouldn't see so many scientist that are religious. As I said earlier; being a Christain doesn't mean we are blind to fact. Science helps me understand the universe God created. It's only a tool but sadly it's treated as a religion by many.

[2strokebloke]

O.K. before we go any further, let's not confuse God with the Bible
The Bible, was written by People, the Bible itself tells us that people are imperfect, so even the Bible admits, that as being the creation of man kind it is imperfect.

The Bible, was not written by, proof read, or editted by God. The Bible may have been inspired by God, yes this is true, but that doesn't mean it's accurate in anyway. Therefor the Bible reveals no solid facts about God. It only reveals the opinions of the writers, and what they believed and thought about God. If you were willing to sit down and reflect, and then write what you concluded about God, Earth, our presence here, and our purpose, what you wrote would be no less important than what they wrote.

That's not to say that they were wrong, or that they were right. It's just to put it into perspective. Too many people read the Bible, and then leave it as the end all be all source of information about why they are here, and what they're supposed to do. Many people would probably benefit greatly, if they were to ponder and reflect, and form opinions, just like the writers of the Bible did.

To take the word of one book on such a complicated subject as existence would be silly. But that's not to say that it has nothing to offer, it is a good starting point for anybody.
So back on topic, (and remembering the difference between bound paper, and the creator of the universe) Does God exist? I've already explained my point of view. Being that there are no variables to test, you can not prove, nor disprove the existence of a God.