The Phoenix is not Dead ?

[doug2060]

Hey doc, I called a friend of mine who works at the local Cadillac dealership out of curiosity over this subject. He told me that when they do this that they do it for a reason. It's easier to move the hole on the machines that make these gaskets than modify the size or some shit like that. I'm not sure if it applies to the Metro or not but he said they do this to reduce the flow. Maybe they want to keep a certain level of oil in the head etc. Why would so many manufacturers make the same mistake and do it for so many years. I really don't know what to tell you here. When I did mine back in Sept/Oct 2008 my hole was half blocked and I left it alone. 54K since then and not one single engine issue.

When these companies make these they make them according to the original manufacturers design specs. If the manufacturer makes a change for whatever reason so will they. The early gakets and original gaskets did not have what we see now. It's very possible this positioning and size of the oil hole is intentional and all you guys stretching them out may be doing the wrong thing.

Let me contact some manufacturers for you in the meantime. Who made your Doc?

[DOCTORBILL]

OK - let us do some REASONING here....no offense meant, fellows.

Have you ever opened the oil filling cap on top of the camshaft cover when the engine is running ?

If the oil return holes were too small, would not the oil being pumped up into
the Camshaft to lubricate it, fill that chamber rather quickly and have oil,
under pressure, wanting to squirt out the oil filling cap ?

The oil in the Camshaft Cavity drains quite quickly when I fill the Geo at oil change times -
and I allow a can to drain upside down - and it is COLD and viscous.

Oil only splashes out if the oil cap is off while the engine runs.
No oil is visible pooling inside there while the engine runs.

Additionally - "...only to have the car look like it was fogging for mosquitoes a few
minutes down the road."

This did not happen the last time I rebuilt the Head and I had not modified the oil drain
holes then, either...

In further addition - "Then why did they make those holes in the Block so big ?" How 'bout this...
Maybe they found out that the holes didn't need to be that big (costly to modify the mold
for the Aluminum Block) so they simply designed the Head Gasket Hole Punch smaller -
a Cheap Fix which could be modified or adjusted anytime later if experience supported it !

They had a reason for this oil drain hole size in the Head Gasket !

If not - then why is this engine designed so damned well ?!

I have a feeling that this is a non-issue.

Otherwise a hundred gozillion old faithful Geo Metros out there would be running badly,
emitting gobs of Mosquito Fogging smoke - every one. Not happening.....

Derived from - "...it seems like a good thing to do..." - without data and facts to support it.

Sorry, but rather than running off half cocked, I'd rather run off fully cocked.

It makes for a better outcome, as it were....

DoctorBill

[doug2060]

Hey doc, I contacted Federal Mogul with this issue. They are the makers of Fel-Pro gaskets. To make it simple:

"If we make it this way there is a reason for it. It is not a mistake."

"I'm looking at it now and cross referencing it with the revision history. There are clear and INTENTIONAL changes in the design."

"When we design our gaskets they are not only designed to meet but exceed the original manufacturers specifications."

"I can advise you to not make any changes to the gasket while it may not cause any problems the gasket as it is will provide maximum efficiency and performance"

My personal OPINION is that you should not change it Doc.

If you would like to hear it from them yourself for peace of mind you can contact them here:

http://www.federalmogul.com/en/ContactUs/

When I did my last head gasket I used a Fel-Pro from the local Advance Auto Parts. The holes didn't match up either. I was concerned because I had forgotten the advice to change the holes. I have yet to have any problem with it. As I recall the lifters were quieter. Maybe it was because there was just a tad bit more oil up there. On the same hand they were probably louder from the overheating.

[Crvett69]

if you pull the head back off you will need a new gasket. i never mess with the holes and never have a problem with it. just bolt it together and run it

[idmetro]

Doc can be the community tester. I have reviewed some of the other posts I read making me concerned about the oil drain back holes; example here http://geometroforum.com/topic/1987137/1/ and it appears it does not happen every time so there must be some combination of factors that cause the behavior. While some will consider the evidence anecdotal I see no evidence indicating that larger holes are "bad" and smaller holes are "good", leaving the question still up the interpreter. As for me if I have the motor opened up I will be enlarging the holes in the head gasket...

[DOCTORBILL]

I would too, probably, but for the fact that I was told after I had put the Head back on.

Plus - why go against the designers of the engine ?

Do you put on Exhaust pipes that are larger ?
Mufflers that are smaller or larger ?

Drill out the plug holes to put in bigger plugs?

Add heavier oil - change to larger or smaller Oil Filters, etc ?

I will not risk boogering up that $50 Head Gasket, now that it is between the
Head and the Block.

Too bad - More often than not folks wait until someone is done before telling
them they did it wrong.

DoctorBill

PS - Community Tester - Ha ! I'd test a new Beer or Cigar for you guys...

[Woodie83]

That's why I screamed Doc, wanted you to hear it before you torqued it down all the way. Johnny Mullet told you to open up those holes on 2/9 in this very thread, included pictures of what a good and bad head gasket look like. The reason Doug2090 got that answer from Fel-Pro, "clear and intentional changes to the design" is probably because someone brought it to their attention and they fixed it. I don't see how #3 is going to get enough cooling water to the head either.

We're not going against the engine designer, we're going against the half assed aftermarket part designer. An yes, people often put on bigger exhaust, thinner oil, bigger filters, K&N type air filters. It depends upon your particular use and what you want to get out of the car. Many decisions the manufacturer makes are purely for cost and spending a little more makes sense if you love your car and are going to keep it. I would never dream of driving a Metro with horrid tires the factory put on there, they scare me to death.

[Johnny Mullet]

I had a few members complain of engine smoking after letting off the gas after high speed interstate driving. This all happened after a head gasket replacement or rebuild. What happens is at high speeds, the oil pressure is high and when you let off the gas, the oil does not drain properly or fast enough causing smoke. It will get sucked through the PCV and into the TB.

Some people have had no issues and others have. None of my customers have had this issue because I use a gasket with the proper cutouts or modify the gasket.

[DOCTORBILL]

Johnny and Woodie - For the sake of all those who might be reading this and
who might be doing a Head Rebuild, who sells a Gasket with larger holes in it ?

I am not going to dump that $50 Head Gasket now - but others might be willing
to seek out any specific Brand of Gasket with larger oil drain holes rather than
trying to cut larger ones themselves.

DoctorBill

PS - You are right - Johnny had told me and I missed it. I get an "F" in Metro repair
this time. Getting older and stupider. Now where did I put my glasses ?

[Crvett69]

just so everyone knows there are 6 (not 2) oil drainback holes in the head. if you look at his pictures the 4 holes in the head closest to the front of the car and the long slots in the block are oil drainback passages, i not sure making one small hole bigger is really going to affect how fast it drains back

[DOCTORBILL]

crvett69 - I was wondering what those big slots were for !

Alright then...you have convinced me not to worry any more.

Until some SCIENTIFIC studies are done to support opening those holes up,
it seems to me we shouldn't worry about it.

If someone who works on zillions of old Geo Metros were to rebuild two metros
and open up one and not the other and then compare outcomes after several
ten's of thousands of miles of driving - then they would have a leg to stand on....

So much is done by very weak logic - "It sounds good to me!" type stuff.

I wish Federal Mogul would open up their books and let us all see those revision
and the WHY's of the revision...at least something HARD (data) might convince folks.

W/O scientific testing, we are back in the Dark Ages making wild guesses.

Sorry Johnny and Woodie - I am not making light of your comments, but don't
you think some hard factual data is appropriate to this issue ?

DoctorBill

PS - Now I have to get back to finishing up The Phoenix II so I can park the "Gas Hog"
and buzz around in the Blue Devil... Lost several days waiting for this discussion to
resolve what I should do.

[doug7x]

If I were you guys, I think I'd look at the ORIGINAL FACTORY head gasket and match the holes to it...we all know how long the 1.0 runs with the original parts...I think I'd do that. (& I probably will...XFI rebuild is coming up this spring)...one other thing...the older 1.0's were made to use 10W30, where most of us are using 5W or 0W....the newer oil may make it back down through the smaller holes, where the 10W30 may have pooled when cold....just a theory....

[DOCTORBILL]

Doug7x - "I think I'd look at the ORIGINAL FACTORY head gasket..."

Mine is a 1993. Is that Geo or Chevrolet ?

Where would you find one of those "Original" things at ?

DoctorBill

[brivers]

Speaking first hand, from experience, if I were you I would alter that gasket. I still haven't fixed mine. After beating my head against the wall I figured a solution, short of pulling the head. I leave the dipstick out and put a downward pointing hose on the dipstick tube.
The oil does build up in the head and into the pcv tube. You wouldn't believe how much smoke comes out when it gulps that little bit of oil

[doug7x]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

Doug7x - "I think I'd look at the ORIGINAL FACTORY head gasket..."

Mine is a 1993. Is that Geo or Chevrolet ?

Where would you find one of those "Original" things at ?

DoctorBill

Yours is a geo....they started putting the bow tie on them some time after '95,...BUT...my '91 XFI (& my '95) has the Geo emblem on the car, but the title says "Chevrolet GeoMetro"...so, I guess they are all "Chevys and Geos"...if you don't still have your original head gasket, I'd go to a chevy dealer & ask to see one, or look at a pic in an original FSM...might get lucky.....good luck