9/11 Conspirator Moussaoui Is One Sick Dude

[fredjacksonsan]

Further, it's funny (from quote #1 above) that the tax can be in the form of military service...for what purpose? It seems that it would be to attack other infidels who refused to pay the tax or render service. So the infidels attack the infidels.


Your point is taken, at least read then entire passage so that you can take the entire meaning. From what I've read here though, I'm shaking my head. Instead of the peaceful Islam you've been promoting, I see an organization that is bent on domination and sees other opinions and those that are not "Part of the body" as something to be cut off and discarded, or enslaved or taxed -- basically, "We'll let you live if you kill others for us, or at least pay us money". Sounds a lot like extortion on a religious scale, and much like how the Mafia is portrayed.

And if that perception is correct, then I can see how Moussaoui may think he has done no wrong, and how Hussein also feels he is above the law.

Very thought provoking.


I'm not bashing Islam, but am only putting forth my opinion based on what you've shown. If I am wrong, please show something else which proves me so.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

Mellowboy, I've always respected your position and intelligence in backing it up. But you've completely ignored direct questions, and are now putting links in - possibly so that others may form their own opinions.

I did not ignore the questions. This is why I posted up the link so you can get the answer from the Imam. Im not sure if this person who replied is a Scholar. Eitherway its pretty accurate but still if you want to search for more views then by all means go right ahead. Its better that way in my opinion.

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

It seems from this point that the tax is assumed to be imposed, if one does not accept Islam.

That is correct. As far as my knowledge tells me.

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

And from this statement, it seems that this scholar points out that the war is because the Jews and Christians did not accept the teachings of Islam.

I dont think that applies today. This happened during the time when Islam was on the rise. Jews and Christians keep there faith in return of paying jezya. From what I understand..that its not oppressive. It wouldn't make sense to wage war on them today in a Islamic country where the Christians are the minority and we're all living in peace. As far as I know, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palistine, Egypt ..non muslims there doesnt have to pay jezya in order for them to keep there religion.

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

What right does Islam have to tax others who do not espouse their beliefs? If the Catholic Church, Jewish religion, or any other denomination attempted to "tax", or instead of tax, force service upon or wage war against Muslims simply due to the fact that Muslims did not hold the same beliefs, there would be a huge uprising.

We have every right. Just like you have every right to speak your mind about any subject. This is our beliefs. You shouldn't be offended. This is God's Law according to our beliefs. You'd have to study Islam deeply for you to understand it because not everything will be explained in one chapter. Muslims that live in non muslim countries must respect there countries law if they're not being oppressed that is. Now do you see us try to come in a non muslim country to force you guys to pay taxes because you're not muslims? No. Jews and Christians have there own way of punishing ppl who rejects the Prophets. I dont know what religion you follow but im goin to ask you this. If you recognize the story of Abraham (pbuh) about him sacraficing his own son's life because God tells him to. Would you question God?? No right? I wouldn't dare to question God. In our beliefs, Qur'an is God's word. So imposing jezya on non muslims is God's decision. Not ours. Everything has a reason. Theres a reason why Islam was created. So this punishment is jezya. It applies to those who rejects the last Prophet.

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

It seems to me that Islam says, "This is the only correct way. Follow it or you will be punished, either by tax, servitude, or war"

It is the correct way. Again according to our beliefs. We dont wage war. If theres peace available, we must uphold peace regardless. We're not suppose to go to other ppl's land/country and wage war. Thats against Islam. It is only taught to defend ourselves. If Islam was so bad, why are we the fastest growing religion today?

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

Doesn't sound very peaceful to me.

You shouldn't think so quickly about a certain verse. SO you read one verse out of thousands you already decided that this religion is not peaceful?? You didn't even give it a chance. You shouldn't just base your views on Islam because one person , like me who still studies the religion. Thats why I keep advising anyone to ask the scholar. They're the Heirs of the Prophets with the most knowledge.

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

It seems from this point that the tax is assumed to be imposed, if one does not accept Islam.

Originally Posted by mellowboy

That is correct. As far as my knowledge tells me.

You go on to say that it is your right to do so. How can someone state that they have the right to do something to someone else, then in another discussion state that if the situation were reversed it would be wrong? Without getting into the morality of the current war in Iraq, you have denounced President Bush and his military, saying he is unjustified. Well, from his point of view he has done nothing wrong, it is his right to engage in war to protect his country, to attack those that do not believe the same as him, and not pay the tax (as in allowing inspection of weapon sites, and of Hussein not cooperating with the UN). Ultimately, isn't this the same attitude as the Nation of Islam saying it can tax all non-Muslims, simply because they are not Muslims?

You also say, "Muslim country". Do the people of Islam see nations only as Muslim or non-Muslim, Islam or infidel?

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

It seems to me that Islam says, "This is the only correct way. Follow it or you will be punished, either by tax, servitude, or war"

Originally Posted by mellowboy

It is the correct way.

But what of other's beliefs? Can they not also be valid? You have said in the past that Jesus is seen as God's prophet also. What of those who have followed the instructions of Jesus? Are they to be taxed also, for following another prophet, and a Holy Book which was also written by the Hand of God? The Bible is seen in much of the world in the same Holiness as the Koran. Could not both be correct? Or is the Bible seen by Muslims as some sort of cheap mockery?

Originally Posted by mellowboy

Again according to our beliefs. We dont wage war. If theres peace available, we must uphold peace regardless. We're not suppose to go to other ppl's land/country and wage war. Thats against Islam.

Could you show me please where in the Koran it states this? You have studied the Koran, and as you pointed out, I have not.

Originally Posted by mellowboy

It is only taught to defend ourselves.

Same. Do you have a source in the Koran for this? You have shown quotes that state the infidel must be taxed, endure servitude, or be attacked. Is there a section of the Koran which shows that fighting is only allowed in defense?

Originally Posted by mellowboy

If Islam was so bad, why are we the fastest growing religion today?

That's opening a Pandora's Box of commentary. Perhaps people fear being attacked. Perhaps they do not want to pay any tax, whether it's monetary or servile. Perhaps people simply do not want to be bothered and go ahead and say that they are becoming Muslim but do not believe. Perhaps people today have weakened convictions and do not care what religion they are involved in. Or perhaps people are flocking to Islam because of the message. I do not know, and do not pretend to know.

What I do know is that it is the same God being worshipped.

[03cavPA]

Originally Posted by mellowboy

I did not ignore the questions. This is why I posted up the link so you can get the answer from the Imam. Im not sure if this person who replied is a Scholar. Eitherway its pretty accurate but still if you want to search for more views then by all means go right ahead. Its better that way in my opinion.

You haven't answered the questions yet. All you've done is tap dance around in a bunch of circles. I don't care what some website Imam has to say, you told us you've studied the religion for 13 years (read one of your own posts, don't make me quote it for you), and you can't (most likely WON'T) answer a few simple questions asked about verses which you yourself supplied to us for "clarification". Screw the context claim. Read the verses you originally posted. If anyone has taken anything out of context, YOU have.

Let me help you out, slick. I'll post my question again, based SOLELY upon the verses YOU supplied. You are either able to answer them, or you are not. I'd darn sure hate to think that 13 years of study haven't prepared you to answer a couple of simple questions, especially since YOU were the one to post the verses in the first place.

I'm not interested in islamophobe sites, Imam blogs, or anything else. Let's get back to the original question, straight on. Are you ready? Here it is again, try to keep up.

Originally Posted by mellowboy

Heres the full verse..

9:29Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


Sure it sounds bad but this is the most famous chapter for islamaphobes to use PARTIAL quotes to ridicule Islam and to make us seem evil. I believe i've stated this before on this site, to understand the meaning of the verse you'd have to read the verses before and after! Or read the whole chapter and the chapter begins with this...

9:1A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

Now, just so you don't have to think too hard to remember, I'll quote my own post, with the questions I am still waiting for you to answer. Just answer those questions. Forget the islamophobe sites, forget the Imams, forget the context argument (which is far too damn lame to even laugh at). Forget all your smokescreen nonsense, and just answer the questions. It's really not that hard to do.

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

Not yet, this is still on topic, since it speaks to Moussaoui's belief that he is to fight all of us pagans, according to the scripture he quoted, and you clarified for us.

I'm still waiting for your answer: does the verse say "fight and subdue" or not? Stop tap dancing. It should be easy enough to answer. It's not a long verse, and you assure us we don't have it right. Enlighten us.

According to Islam, I'm a pagan, since I don't acknowledge the godhood of Allah and I am not willing to pay the tax (protection money), nor do I wish to enter into any "contract" as it states in verse 1A. I'm not willing to live under Islamic law, and I don't recognize its authority in my life.

Are you commanded to fight me and subdue me, or not? Simple question, really. Moussaoui feels it's his duty to make us all pay, and that's the topic of this thread, so I think the question is fair game.

Answer that for me, and I'll let it go. Why won't you tell us the answer?

I'll let you go out and run around the block for another page or so, then I'll ask you the same things again. Just trying to keep this on track, since it concerns Moussaoui's beliefs as he understands them.

Maybe Moussaoui really DOES have it right, after all.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

: does the verse say "fight and subdue" or not? Stop tap dancing. It should be easy enough to answer. It's not a long verse, and you assure us we don't have it right. Enlighten us.

Yes you are correct. You're absolutely right.

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

Are you commanded to fight me and subdue me, or not? Simple question, really. Moussaoui feels it's his duty to make us all pay, and that's the topic of this thread, so I think the question is fair game.

Moussaoui is wrong. I've been saying this all this time that we do not go in other ppl's country to cause trouble. We have to respect other countries law..whatever the law is.

[Broke_as_****]

Taking a cheap shot here in an effort to give people a different perspective on a cetain matter. There is actually a good intention behind this, my sarcasm is just bleeding into it:

McDonalds is the fastest growing food corporation in the world, it doesn't make their burgers taste any better.

Not meant as an insult, just seemed the best way to get the point across.

Anyway, I'm curious as to the passages that contain the "peace as a rule" and "when else where don't start trouble" parts, because this seems to be contradicting section 9:29.

What part of the koran should this be in?

[03cavPA]

See, mellowboy, that wasn't so hard. We all knew that's what it said.



--warning, tongue in cheek mode on --- ;-)

I wonder, though, where all these guys get the idea they need to come over here and fight and kill all of us pagans. Have they killed all of the infidels in their own countries, and now they need some new targets? Sounds to me like they need some good old fashioned Islamic sensitivity training.

I'm no apologist for religions, but there are a lot of disenfranchised people in all religions, and they sieze the opportunity to justify their hatred, or frustration, whatever. The west, and the US in particular, has made itself a target for nutcases by its own policies and actions. Don't get me wrong, I served in the US military, and I still believe this country is one of the best places (if not the best) to live, but we've done some shady stuff in the last century, and we still do.

This eye for an eye stuff is getting old, though. Pretty soon the entire world will be blind. A few well placed nukes might blind them a little faster, though. ;-)

Broke, I'm shocked. Since when have you ever been sarcastic? McDonald's is growing so fast because it's easier and faster to eat that swill than it is to stay home and put the time and effort into cooking a decent, healthy meal.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by Broke_as_****

Anyway, I'm curious as to the passages that contain the "peace as a rule" and "when else where don't start trouble" parts, because this seems to be contradicting section 9:29.

What part of the koran should this be in?

It only seems that way when you dont read the whole Qur'an. You can't just pick out certain verses and you think you got the whole thing figured out. I will try to explain in details later on. I had this discussion with a friend of mine whos knowledge on this matter is better than mine.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

I wonder, though, where all these guys get the idea they need to come over here and fight and kill all of us pagans. Have they killed all of the infidels in their own countries, and now they need some new targets? Sounds to me like they need some good old fashioned Islamic sensitivity training.

They're nothing but plain criminals who uses religion to justify there actions. Also media loves the extremists, terrorists etc.... ITs gives them something to talk about. So thats why you always here Islam this, Islam that...The media is so focused on Islam. These days many ppl rely on the media for answers IMO. Those ppl are ignorant. Look what happen after 9/11. Muslims here has been attacked because of our beliefs. They never give it a chance to understand us. I believe this happened in Arizona where some man killed a Seikh because he was wearing a turban. Another one when I was watching the news, some lady was yelling at the muslim father holding his baby telling him to leave this country if you dont like it. I dont know if you know this but many ppl starting to convert to Islam after the 9/11 tragedy. Thats because they want to see what Islam was about and they like what they've learned.

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

I still believe this country is one of the best places (if not the best) to live, but we've done some shady stuff in the last century, and we still do.

And I agree. Many muslims love it here. All this controversy with Islam and the west gets a little out of hand at times. We all (muslims) try to become our best to adjust the western life here.

[Broke_as_****]

The problem being that contradictions ultimately come down to individual lines that don't agree with each other. And again I'd like to see the sections you refer to with the peace and understanding bits in them. For the iron clad direct law of god the koran seems to require alot of interpretation.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by Broke_as_****

The problem being that contradictions ultimately come down to individual lines that don't agree with each other. And again I'd like to see the sections you refer to with the peace and understanding bits in them. For the iron clad direct law of god the koran seems to require alot of interpretation.

It is required to use your best intellect and it requires concentration.

A friend of mine says this..

Fiqh, or Islamic Jurisprudence is a complex system in which detailed legal questioned are not answered based on merely one verse in the Qur'an. Rather, evidences are taken from all of the Islamic sources and weighed in accordance to the principles derrived from those sources. These are the tasks of qualified scholars.


Fiqh- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh


2:190 - Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

2:191 - And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

The last 2 verses shows in self defense.This all relates to one another.Start from the begining.

In muslim countries , the muslims also pay taxes call Zakat. Zakat goes towards the needy ppl. But theres also different variations of Zakat but this is just a heads up for you.