Indeniable proof

[AlmostStock]

Originally Posted by PWRDbyUNCLEbens

My MAIN point is why would god punish the the nature of the people he created? I believe I am a good person, but through my reasoning I don't believe in christianity. Why would a christian god punish me for thinking with facts?

It doesn't make sense does it? We use the logic "He" supposedly gave us to come to a conclusion and then he's going to hold it against us?

When I think about where existence itself came from I have to think there was someone or something (a god) that started everything.

Do you ever wonder were a god came from?

Another point is that if the same people that believe in christianity grew up around any other religion a large majority of them would probably follow THAT religion.

Of course they would. It's just a matter of where and when you were born or raised.

I think what happens in the afterlife is already imbedded (sp?) in every person despite who they are.

I'm not sure I understand this one. Care to elaborate?

[PWRDbyUNCLEbens]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

I'm not sure I understand this one. Care to elaborate?

Its kind of hard to put into words. you could sum it up by saying that all living things already have a fate despite how they live their life. Atleast this is my feeling

I say all living things because I believe in evolution, so for my theory to work everything that is living must have an afterlfie. The first living thing would have had an afterlife. I'm sure god didn't just pick a point in the evolution of life and say "here you can have souls now".

In that case I don't believe there is a cut and dry heaven and hell (unless a single celled organism can do evil and good?). All I can figure is there is one all encompasing afterlife/reincarnation (whatever it maybe) for every living thing. It makes the most sense for me.

[Sean]

Proof

Comes in a handy paperback form.

[kman10587]

You know what? People are going to believe whatever they want. And there is nothing you can do, no matter what, to prove their beliefs right or wrong, because anyone can deny anything, if they want to disbelieve so badly. For example, just because they found an old wooden boat and called it Noah's Ark, or proved through DNA that there was some pothead named Jesus Christ two-thousand years ago, doesn't mean that everything else that Christianity says is true. I don't mean to single out Christianity, but it's the religion most commonly practiced in my country, and the one I have the most experience dealing with.

The problem with most all Western religions is that they just doesn't encourage open-mindedness. They tell you what to do and how to do it, and in Christianity's case, threatens you with eternal damnation if you don't. As Carl Marx said, religion is the opiate of the masses. For people of below-average intelligence (the masses), religion is great. Being open-minded is scary, and religion makes it so that you don't have to be. This, combined with a complete and utter lack of solid proof to back up the claims of most religious texts, is why I believe that religion is, at its core, merely a tool used by those in power for controlling entire populations, and it's a very effective one at that. I will never practice any Western religion, ever. I have far too much dignity, self-respect, and independence to whore myself out to a 2000-year old storybook.

I apologize if I sound like a pretentious asshole, but when it comes to touchy subjects like this one, I prefer to just be blunt and get it over with.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by Sean

Proof

Comes in a handy paperback form.

Proof? Try more of a sciencetific theory.

Now I'll agree that evolution is real, in a way, because we see it everyday. If I go to a colder climate my body will adjust over time to where I'm use to it. People over time evolve to live to their environment.

The thing is, we didn't come from the monkey. That part of evolution is silly.


You people want proof though? Well here it is.

If there is no God then we're all a mistake. I mean people, life, the planet, everything is just a big mistake that just happened. We're a result of a "luck of the draw" so to say.

What are the odds that billions and billions of years ago there was a swirl of gases, high concentration of matter, whatever you believe suddenly exploded into what we call the universe? Also, where did these gases/matter come from?
Sure, scientist say everything started with the big bang, wrong. Even science shows that there's a cause and effect. What caused the big bang? What reaction could have caused an explotion?

Lets move on though shall we?

What are the odds that this planet which we call Earth will be created from this big bang and be throw out with a the Sun? What are the odds that this Earth just so happened was able to be thrown just the right distance from this Sun so it's not too hot or cold but just right to where life can live?

Want to go a little farther though?

What are the odds that on this planet Earth a series of volcanic eruptions went off all of a sudden to shoot the gases that are needed for life to live off of?

Lets go on though want to because this one here is a big one?

What are the odds that in the water of this young planet an electrical charge built up just enough to hit the water where the minerals in it, along with the water, were just right to react with a type of chemical/fussion reaction where the first cell was formed?
What are also the odds that this electrical charge in the water was just right that in this reaction the first DNA code was construded? As science has already shown the DNA code is very long and complex with several billion strands of code. What are the odds a bolt of lighting in the water created the first life/cell/DNA coding needed for life to evolve/live/reproduce/ect?

There's more though so don't stop yet.

What are the odds that after millions of years of division the cells were able to form together and form the first single celled organisms? What are the odds that through "evolution" these cells were able to divide and keep dividing into the different species?
What are the odds that after a million more years the organisms moved onto the land and through "evolution" and cell division the organisms divided into the kingdoms of life?
What are the odds that after all these millions and millions of years the first single cell was able to divide and through evolution into the billions of lifeforms from simple house plants to human beings?

Well, I'm no math teacher but the odds of that all happening are out of this world. You may laugh at me for looking for guidence in a "2000 year old storybook" but I laugh at you for actually believing this all "just happened."

[kman10587]

Muscletang: You're looking at this the wrong way. You're looking at the world in a human-centered view; in other words, you are assuming that humans were just there, and the world was created around them. Wrong. Humans are less than a tiny speck on the timeline of the entire universe. The universe, the galaxy, the Earth, and the atmosphere were all created FAR, FAR before life ever existed on this planet. If there been a slightly different electric current in the water, or if the volcanoes had shot up a different mixture of gases, then we wouldn't all be humans right now; we'd be something entirely different. I know how scary a thought it is, but with enlightment comes the loss of innocence. The truth of the world, of our past, present, and future, is a scary and difficult thing to face, and for those too feint of heart and weak of mind to face it, Jesus Christ is their sedative. The Bible tells you what you want to hear, and people who are too stupid to know any better will ALWAYS believe what they want to hear. Ignorance is bliss. And that's really all that Christianity is: a cover-up of the truth, an "opiate of the masses", to preserve the sanity and sanctity of our society. As much as I detest it, I realize and accept that Christianity is a necessity in our society. People have questions, questions that need answers, and religion offers easy, painless answers to those questions. But for those of us who have the ability, the motivation, and the strength to seek a higher truth, to expand our minds, and to become truly enlightened, Christianity has no place in our lives whatsoever.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by kman10587

Muscletang: You're looking at this the wrong way. You're looking at the world in a human-centered view; in other words, you are assuming that humans were just there, and the world was created around them.

I don't remember saying anything like that. Unless you're jumping to a conclusion since I am a Christian.

Originally Posted by kman10587

Wrong. Humans are less than a tiny speck on the timeline of the entire universe. The universe, the galaxy, the Earth, and the atmosphere were all created FAR, FAR before life ever existed on this planet.

That's true and I'll admit it. It even says so in the Bible. So there's no argument here.

Originally Posted by kman10587

If there been a slightly different electric current in the water, or if the volcanoes had shot up a different mixture of gases, then we wouldn't all be humans right now; we'd be something entirely different.

That's the thing I'm asking which was never answered. What are the odds that everything came together perfectly to create life and for it to evolve into us?

Originally Posted by kman10587

I know how scary a thought it is, but with enlightment comes the loss of innocence. The truth of the world, of our past, present, and future, is a scary and difficult thing to face, and for those too feint of heart and weak of mind to face it, Jesus Christ is their sedative.

Is that so? Well I feel I feel stronger and less feint of heart with Jesus than without him when facing the world but ok.

Originally Posted by kman10587

The Bible tells you what you want to hear, and people who are too stupid to know any better will ALWAYS believe what they want to hear. Ignorance is bliss. And that's really all that Christianity is: a cover-up of the truth, an "opiate of the masses", to preserve the sanity and sanctity of our society.

What truth is this that the Bible is covering up?
That humans are nothing but a hickup in the gene pool?
That our lives are pointless and meaningless when put into the big picture?
That when you get down to it, you don't mean a damn to anybody or anything in this world or universe?

Originally Posted by kman10587

As much as I detest it, I realize and accept that Christianity is a necessity in our society. People have questions, questions that need answers, and religion offers easy, painless answers to those questions.

Is that so?

This "painless answer" being that we were created for a reason? That humans actually have a purpose?

Originally Posted by kman10587

But for those of us who have the ability, the motivation, and the strength to seek a higher truth, to expand our minds, and to become truly enlightened, Christianity has no place in our lives whatsoever.

This "higher truth" that only the "strong" can learn is that you're nothing, people are nothing?
And Christianity has no place in our society because the sooner people learn there is no God, they have no purpose, their lives are meaningless, and this place we call the universe was created on a stroke of luck the better they'll be and they'll know this "higher truth" and their minds will be expanded?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Proof? Try more of a sciencetific theory.

Evolution is actually considered a scientific fact. A theory indicates that it is true because it can not or has not been proven untrue. The entire study of biology relies on evolution being true. If evolution was false, biology would be set back over a hundred years and we might as we believe birds and bats are closely related because they both have wings.

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Now I'll agree that evolution is real, in a way, because we see it everyday. If I go to a colder climate my body will adjust over time to where I'm use to it. People over time evolve to live to their environment.

Nope, that's adaptation and isn't related to genetics.

Originally Posted by Muscletang

The thing is, we didn't come from the monkey. That part of evolution is silly.

You're right. We came from the apes. The apes came from the monkeys.

Originally Posted by Muscletang

You people want proof though? Well here it is.

If there is no God then we're all a mistake. I mean people, life, the planet, everything is just a big mistake that just happened. We're a result of a "luck of the draw" so to say.

If it didn't happen we wouldn't be around to think about it now would we? To put things into other words: Have you ever driven home from work and though to yourself "Wow! I saw license plate A6G 18Z today! What are the odds of that happening?"

Originally Posted by Muscletang

What are the odds that ...

Lets move on though shall we?

What are the odds that this planet which we call Earth will be created from this big bang and be throw out with a the Sun? What are the odds that this Earth just so happened was able to be thrown just the right distance from this Sun so it's not too hot or cold but just right to where life can live?

Want to go a little farther though?
...
were just right to react with a type of chemical/fussion reaction where the first cell was formed? ...
As science has already shown the DNA code is very long and complex with several billion strands of code.

There's more though so don't stop yet....

What are the odds that after a million more years the organisms moved onto the land and through "evolution" and cell division the organisms divided into the kingdoms of life?

You must have been asleep in science class or they were probably teaching some "intellegent design" rubbish. More on that later.

Fusion/Fission has nothing to do with the chemical reactions that took place in the ocean. Fusion/Fission is sub-atomic and occurs naturally inside the atoms in a star or syntheticly in a nuclear reactor (fission at this point). Whoops, you're asleep again.

The kingdoms of life (not the idea) were not established after the animals evolved and suddenly decided to sort themselves into groups. it happened while life was evolving. And, just like division, more often than not you have remainders, irrational numbers, and even zeros in the denominator.

Intellegent design (and this is something that really irks me) is nothing more that an attempt to discredit evolution. People claim that sure, they believe that evolution might be possible on a small scale, but evolving from monkeys, developing eyes, the origin of DNA, etc. is just far to complex to be natural and therefore must indicate a designer.

First off, there is nothing, NO EVIDENCE AT ALL, that means complexity indicates an designer. The development of a complex eye is a relatively straightforward process once a cell is receptive to light. It can happen in a short time frame considering how long it took to cells to start grouping together.

Secondly, there is a lot of unsuccessful, poorly evolved creatures that were unable to survive and became extinct. What does this say about the creator? Find me something from any religious text, (the original versions and not some modern rewritten rubbish to cover tracks) that gives a reason, or even a mention, for this and I'll give you that point.

This relates to kman10587's point regarding "the masses" because most people (at least in North America (and this is a fact)) don't understand or don't want to understand science. Anything those scientists do "is fine and dandy so long as the quality of my TV gets better. But when they start threating the credibility of my religion, God (mind the pun) help them."

Originally Posted by Muscletang

You may laugh at me for looking for guidence in a "2000 year old storybook" but I laugh at you for actually believing this all "just happened."

Well at least we're both having a good time.

[RickwithaTbird]

heres the way I look at it...

God gave me free will, a conscience and morals. He gave me the ability to rationalize. I use my morals and my conscience to make my decisions. I don't need to worship god in order to know what to do. I understand the difference between right and wrong without worship, and I do my best to live an honest life and resist temptations for evil. I treat people fairly. I donate when I can afford it. I don't steal anymore. I did as a kid, but I've grown out of it; it makes me feel bad so I won't steal. I don't need a book to tell me how to live. I believe whole heartedly that the life I choose to live is fair enough. When I make mistakes I feel guilty. I don't need a bible to tell me what I did was wrong. I don't need to be baptised for my sins. I forgive myself. And to me that's all that matters. I live righteously by my own will, and if there is a god who doesn't think that is good enough, then I don't want any part of his religion. Send me to hell motherfucker, I suffer too. Am I supposed to devote my life to god just because he doesn't choose to smite me? Hey God, since you choose day by day not to fuck me up the ass, why don't I suck your dick.... I don't think so. That is not how a religion should work in my eyes. I am absolutely firm on my own belief system, and I think any common sense having "God" would agree that I'm doing just fine. Which is WHY, when the aliens come down and provide me UNDENIABLE truth, this is what I would say....


"Cool.... now I know."

then I would post a thread about it on AF, and watch all the die hard believers keep on believing in something that they simply just WANT to believe in. Undeniable is undeniable. Faith is blind. One who has faith is not swayed by truth.


Let me say this as a disclaimer:

I do not think of christians as stupid, or wrong. I simply feel that they have the ability to believe something which can't be proven. I have that ability only when I get a gut feeling. Christianity does not provide that for me. So for those who believe.... more power to you. When the proof comes you will hear no evil, see no evil, and speak no evil. Just like a monkey. Because thats where we came from. monkeys.

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by Sean

First off, there is nothing, NO EVIDENCE AT ALL, that means complexity indicates an designer.

Nah, your right, irreducable complexity just kinda happens. You haven't heard of entropy by chance have you?

Originally Posted by Sean

The development of a complex eye is a relatively straightforward process once a cell is receptive to light.

You have no real concept of biological development do you? I can't imagine someone, even with just a high school biology background trying to make this argument

Originally Posted by Sean

Secondly, there is a lot of unsuccessful, poorly evolved creatures that were unable to survive and became extinct.

I forgot that most religions indicate that God made everything perfect.

Darwin himself suggested that in the near future, with further archeological exploration, the transitional species that his theory hinged on would be discovered, and to this day not a single such species has been found.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by ct91rs

Nah, your right, irreducable complexity just kinda happens. You haven't heard of entropy by chance have you?

You have no real concept of biological development do you? I can't imagine someone, even with just a high school biology background trying to make this argument

I forgot that most religions indicate that God made everything perfect.

Darwin himself suggested that in the near future, with further archeological exploration, the transitional species that his theory hinged on would be discovered, and to this day not a single such species has been found.

Yawn.



Bada bing

So you believe in physics but not the basis of biology? Interesting.

Irreducable complexity, by the way, assumes the structures function has not change from the time it was developed.

Bada bang

Originally Posted by Charles Darwin

To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Despite the precision and complexity of the eye, computer models of eye evolution, developed by Dan-Erik Nilsson and Susanne Pelger, demonstrated that a primitive optical sense organ could evolve into a complex human-like eye within a reasonable period (less than a million years) simply through small mutations and natural selection.

Of course it's hard to imagine a high school student being able to make that statement. Expecially if they were educated in the state of Kansas; that is a whole different topic that belongs in the political section though.

Bada boom.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

When Charles Darwin's The Origin of Species was first published, the fossil record was poorly known, and the claim that there was a lack of transitional fossils was perfectly reasonable. However, the discovery of Archaeopteryx only two years later was seen as a stunning triumph for Darwin's theory of common descent. Similarly, Othniel Charles Marsh provided groundbreaking evidence of transitional fossils in the evolution of horses.

No transitional species? What scientists may call male Bos taurus scat, the layman would call BS.

What else ya got?

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by Sean

You're right. We came from the apes. The apes came from the monkeys.

Well then if that's true where are the hard facts? We have apes and monkeys running around and we have humans. Obviously there was a creature(s) in between to link the two. Where are they? The only thing I can possible think of is bigfoot but that's a whole different thread and story.

Originally Posted by Sean

If it didn't happen we wouldn't be around to think about it now would we? To put things into other words: Have you ever driven home from work and though to yourself "Wow! I saw license plate A6G 18Z today! What are the odds of that happening?"

If you would have read the rest of it you would have seen my point.

Originally Posted by Sean

You must have been asleep in science class or they were probably teaching some "intellegent design" rubbish. More on that later.

Fusion/Fission has nothing to do with the chemical reactions that took place in the ocean. Fusion/Fission is sub-atomic and occurs naturally inside the atoms in a star or syntheticly in a nuclear reactor (fission at this point). Whoops, you're asleep again.

You must have been the one asleep. Fusion means "to put together" and fission means "to break apart." Now atomic fusion and fission is on the atomic level like what you talked about.

This brings me back to what some scientist say a type of fusion occured for the first cells to form.

Originally Posted by Sean

The kingdoms of life (not the idea) were not established after the animals evolved and suddenly decided to sort themselves into groups. it happened while life was evolving. And, just like division, more often than not you have remainders, irrational numbers, and even zeros in the denominator.

So we have kingdoms of live, some that aren't related what so ever, that came from one cell. You'd think they would have found evidence of this by now.

Originally Posted by Sean

Intellegent design (and this is something that really irks me) is nothing more that an attempt to discredit evolution. People claim that sure, they believe that evolution might be possible on a small scale, but evolving from monkeys, developing eyes, the origin of DNA, etc. is just far to complex to be natural and therefore must indicate a designer.

It just depends on what you believe. DNA, the blue print for life. Either you believe there was a higher power that created it. Or you can believe that a electrical charge that was just right reacted with the molecules in water with certain elements to chemical react and through reactions and fusion blah blah blah BAM we have the blue print of life.

Originally Posted by Sean

First off, there is nothing, NO EVIDENCE AT ALL, that means complexity indicates an designer. The development of a complex eye is a relatively straightforward process once a cell is receptive to light. It can happen in a short time frame considering how long it took to cells to start grouping together.

So we have a group of cells, expose them to light, and we get the eye? Interesting view there.

Originally Posted by Sean

Secondly, there is a lot of unsuccessful, poorly evolved creatures that were unable to survive and became extinct. What does this say about the creator? Find me something from any religious text, (the original versions and not some modern rewritten rubbish to cover tracks) that gives a reason, or even a mention, for this and I'll give you that point.

Give of few examples of poorly evolved creatures. Also, what does it say about the creator? Things die, so what?

Also, I'd like to point out, many people think the modern Bible is "re-written" it's not. Today's Bible is 97% the same as it was during the time of Jesus.

The other 3% is stuff like "Jesus walked and danced on the road" changed to "Jesus skipped on the road."

Originally Posted by Sean

This relates to kman10587's point regarding "the masses" because most people (at least in North America (and this is a fact)) don't understand or don't want to understand science. Anything those scientists do "is fine and dandy so long as the quality of my TV gets better. But when they start threating the credibility of my religion, God (mind the pun) help them."

Oh I understand science, in fact in debates like this you have to. The thing is science can't explain everything.

Like I said the big bang is a joke. All the matter in the universe was balled up into something the size of a pen dot and it exploded. Where did it come from?
Ok, there was a big swarm of gases and they curled up and exploded. Where did the gases come from?
Science says there's a cause and effect. What caused the big bang? How did this cause come to be?

Oh, by the way, nobody has told me the odds yet.

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Like I said the big bang is a joke. All the matter in the universe was balled up into something the size of a pen dot and it exploded. Where did it come from? Ok, there was a big swarm of gases and they curled up and exploded. Where did the gases come from?
Science says there's a cause and effect. What caused the big bang? How did this cause come to be?

Scientists don't know where the big bang came from. The laws of physics and thermodynamics break down nano-seconds before reaching the Big Bang. Scientists have no idea what caused it. The only real explanation I have heard were by some physicists that hypothesize there was a "quantum fluctuation in nothingness" which caused the Big Bang. Gee, that's a whole lot more believable than God

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Oh, by the way, nobody has told me the odds yet.

There is less than a 1 in 10^282(million trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) chance that a body (planet) would form, being capable of supporting life absent divine intervention.

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...on_earth.shtml

also see:

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...on_earth.shtml

[Sean]

Calculating the odds and trying to convince someone with big numbers only serves to sway those sitting on the fence. What are the odds you winning every single state jackpot in the country in a row? If it happened, would you not collect your prize because the odds of it happening are too small? Have you ever though of winning every single state, charity, and international lottery, as well as discovering a diamond mine and an oil well in you backyard in a week? No? You probably wouldn't unless it happened to you. If it does, surprise, you're one lucky SOB!

For someone who claims to understand science, you seem to know little regarding evolution. It's not a linear process. There are transitional species that have been found, which have flatly denied in this thread. I'm not just talking about some half-dinosaur/half-bird fossil either. Here is a list of at least 12 (that's right, twelve) know species of animals (yes, that includes us) that belong to the Homo genus. Go back to the Hominidae family section and look at an even larger list of animals closely related to us. Notice that that is a list of known species, of which fossils or living specimens have been found. The evolution of a new species does not classify the species it evolved from as extinct.
Bigfoot, a.k.a. Homo sapien in a rubber suit, is not on the list. Sorry.

[kman10587]

This is getting stupid. I'm not going to go into advanced biology on an automotive message board. You either understand how evolution works, or you don't. It's not easy to understand. But if you don't understand it, that's okay - God created us anyways.

This "higher truth" that only the "strong" can learn is that you're nothing, people are nothing?
And Christianity has no place in our society because the sooner people learn there is no God, they have no purpose, their lives are meaningless, and this place we call the universe was created on a stroke of luck the better they'll be and they'll know this "higher truth" and their minds will be expanded?

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Yeah, the odds of the universe being created the way it was are very minimal, but that's how it happened. The difference between science and religion is not in how believable it is, it's in whether or not it can be proven. Science can be proven with scientific facts. The facts are there. To really understand them, though, you probably need to take some college-level scientific courses. The thing is, not everyone goes to college. College costs money, college takes effort, and college requires intellect. So, you have this majority of people, who don't go to college, who don't understand what all the "nerds" are talking about, who, nevertheless, need something to give their lives purpose and meaning. And what is that something? God. We are futile, we are pointless, we are no better off than a lizard on a rock, awaiting death. You either have the strength and the intellect to understand that, or you don't.

If you really don't believe me, look at higher-ups in religion itself. The church has been persecuting scientists and philosophers since the 1500's. It would be too bad if people were to actually start thinking in a way other than what the Bible says. They obviously have something to hide.

Quite honestly, I'm sick of beating my head against a brick wall by arguing with you. I have no chance of getting through to you; you're far too blinded by now. So, I'm done with this crap.