What is the POINT for abortion?

[fredjacksonsan]

That's certainly the rub here. If we look at the situation globally, then the children that are already here aren't being taken care of, so why bring more into the situation?

[YogsVR4]

Now you're making value judgements on the quality of life thats acceptable for someone else. The people living like that aren't killing themselves off and I'm sure they're interested in improving their lot.

[fredjacksonsan]

Yup, guilty of overgeneralization, but I did say "look at the situation globally". There are many numerous factors that contribute to not feeding or caring for children worldwide, and that's a whole 'nuther discussion.

Back on topic, apologies for the excursion....

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

If the pregnency is unwanted, the fetus amounts to nothing more than a parasite living within a host. it is totally reliant on the mother for life, and cannot function without her present, especially during the early months of pregnency. sure, it may potentially become a human being, but the fact remains, at that point and time, it isnt even alive. its just feeding off the mother.

So people have to lessen what a fetus is to justify killing the fetus. If you see no difference between a tapeworm and a fetus you missed some classes in school.

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

as for the whole "personal responsability" line, i dont buy it. its a bunch of bogus BS spouted by the religious right to try and somehow make every woman who gets an abortion out to be some irresponsable coward who cant run her own life, and thats simply not the case.

Are you saying that people shouldn't be responsible for their actions? I am not part of the religous right but I am part of the right. Now I can say that a woman who has sex and gets knocked up is showing a lack of responsibility knowing the outcome of having sex without the use of protection. I am not suggesting that the women who have abortions are irresponsible cowards but I am saying a woman who gets knocked up is a morally irresponsible coward.

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

sure, a woman may get pregnent from sex, but that doesnt mean she has to have a child. and if you could prevent her from even getting pregnent while still engaging in sex, wouldnt you? and to whoever said have a vasectomy...id like kids someday, just not now.

If you use birth control properly the chance of getting knocked up is 1%. If you use a condom with another form of birth control that makes less than 1%. Kids today don't care about birth control and STD's never even enter their minds. Also I am the one who said vasectomy. Combine that with a woman who has her tubes cut will make that a 99.99%. If you can't be responsible with your sperm than you shouldn't have any sperm.

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

and as for having to accept a kid as a chance of sex. fact: people will have sex before they are ready to have kids. and i think they should. sex is healthy and fun. those that dont want kids will find a way to not have them. abortions are an option. as long as birth control remains less than 100% effective (and i know 99% sounds great, but its actually not...more on this as a foot note) and also remains such a taboo subject in american society there will be abortions, wether legal or not. accept it. deal with it. hell, even embrace it.

I've never heard sex is fun! Is sex to you like going to a sports game or going to a party? Sports and parties are fun sex is a pleasure. People also die during the act of sex, sure 99% of people having sex will survive according to the fine print. But I don't like those chances. I think the medical profession should work on making it so that 100% people survive the act of sex.

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

*as for the 99% effectiveness rating, we learned about this is math class freshman year, but ive since forgotten it. something to do with the fine print and how they determine that 99%, actually means its more like 60% effective in the real world. know any people who got pregnent while on the pill? i do.

Must be that new math they are teaching in schools nowadays! 99% is the same as 60%. Am I glad that I maintained grades higher than that 60% in school and I totally avoided that 99% grade since I would have to repeat the grade because I would of failed.

BTW yes I do know people who had children that used the pill and they all will admit they missed at least 2 pills during the month. Missing pills takes that 99% down to 0%. Condoms break when they are installed wrong. My daughter was a broken rubber and my youngest was a birth control baby. And every day I am thankful they are here to share their lives with me.

If you want to have sex and don't want children than we have 10 states in America that don't make it illegal to have sex with animals. I would suggest moving to those states because than the chance of having a unwanted child is 0%. It all comes down to having your cake and eating it too. If you wanna play then you must pay when you lose.

Sorry for being soo blunt, I was following your lead in regards to the tapeworm.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by Flatrater

My daughter was a broken rubber and my youngest was a birth control baby. And every day I am thankful they are here to share their lives with me

...and the home team scores another point.

Flatrater you hit the nail on the head again. You also prooved a good point. Not to be mean or anything but your kids were "mistakes." Now you weren't ready or want the kids at the moment, did you abort though? No.

And from the sounds of it you couldn't be happier.

[lazysmurff]

so, i have tried like 10 times to post a reply, but AF and my computer have teamed up to create an indestructable team with one goal in mind...preventing my brilliance from being displayed.

anyways, ill try again later, when the comp/AF guard is down. it will be nothing short of brilliance.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

...and the home team scores another point.

Flatrater you hit the nail on the head again. You also prooved a good point. Not to be mean or anything but your kids were "mistakes." Now you weren't ready or want the kids at the moment, did you abort though? No.

And from the sounds of it you couldn't be happier.

I don't like the word mistakes they were unplanned for. I always thought that I would wait till I was older and had more money. But you will not change with age and you will not get richer unless you win a lawsuit or the lottery. I just left it up to fate figuring I would have kids when it happened instead of trying to plan them. Anyone with kids knows there is no such thing as planning when it comes to kids. I could of done a better job in birth control but I was married and I didn't mind having kids. The second I and my wife consented to have sex, it became a planned child knowing that I could have a child from having sex.

The excuse of abortion being right has been used many times, you know that excuse. It's the one about the women who are raped, well nowadays those women who are raped are given the morning after pill. So we can safely say that 99.9% of abortions are for people who lack better judgement in the birth control department. They are after sex and can care less about the results of that act. Birth control is for both sexes. The man as well as the women should be concerned about using birth control, it isn't just up to the woman.

Now what gets me is the statement about birth control not being 100% effective. Go look up the numbers on abortion and how many women die from getting abortions and how many woman suffer long term issues from the abortion. You will find that abortion isn't 100% safe. You say the pill isn't 100% effective yet women can get hurt from abortions and maybe even die from them. In the medical field OB/GYN is the highest malpractice area in medicine. OB/GYN doctors have the highest insurance costs, geezs I wonder why that is? Only thing in life that is 100% is death. Yup you are guaranteed to die one day and that is 100% certain. After death nothing is 100%. If you had a lottery ticket with the chance of winning at 50% most would play the lottery, bump that up to 99% and I doubt anyone would whine about that 1%.

The safest form of birth control is not having sex. As far as I know only one woman in all time has had a child without sex. So there goes the 100% on that. But if you are getting backed up and turning blue go to your room and relieve yourself. Don't worry what your mom told you isn't true. No you won't go blind or grow hair on your palms. If that was true we would have millions of people that are blind with hairy palms.


And for the record I am against abortion when it concerns me or my family. I was not put on this planet to force my beliefs on anyone. If it floats your boat to have abortion after abortion, go for it. It's no skin off my back. But what if that child you aborted turned out to be someone great? What if Albert Einstien's mom had an abortion? What if Bill Gates mom had an abortion? You don't know what you lost, but hey your fun needs pleasing more than that child needs a life.

[lazysmurff]

The one thing that most debates about abortion get down to at one point or another is “what defines human life and existence?” At what point does a clump of cells turn into a full blown human being? Throughout time, this particular debate has raged, and yet no one has ever come to an answer that will be agreed upon by everyone, mostly because the Christian coalition and religious right nut balls refuse to accept that there is a possibility that God did not infuse the body with a soul the instant sperm met egg. This a possibility that must be accepted and accounted for.
My position on the issue is as follows. Human life is differentiated from other mammals (I don’t honestly have to consider plant life in this do I?) by several things, however the most basic, and biggest difference is what I will refer to as cognitive self awareness. Not just being aware of yourself, but aware that you are aware of yourself. Follow? At this moment, the lump of cells becomes human. Now, it is not necessary for you to form memories of this time. Honestly, who among us remembers there day of birth? The first year of life? Very few if any. However, others such as parents and doctors and relatives can attest to the fact that these new born infants are indeed self aware, and this awareness is, for me, what constitutes human existence. Dogs may be aware of themselves, but anybody who studies dogs can tell you that they aren’t aware that they are aware of themselves. It’s a fine distinction, but it is one that distinguishes human life.
Now, a beating heart and functioning brain do not necessarily mean cognitive self awareness is taking place. Many brain dead people possess brain function and beating hearts, but euthanasia is a very common, and id argue humane, practice. These people lack cognitive self awareness, and therefore are no longer leading an existence defined as human. Before you work yourself into a hissy fit about that, ill remind, I didn’t say they weren’t human. An important rub here is that they at one point did possess the self awareness. Thus making the decision to terminate more heartbreaking and tragic. It is losing a human life, though I would argue (please don’t make me, id sound awful and heartless) that we lost that human life when they went brain dead, not when the heart stopped beating after pulling the plug.
As for abortion, the fetus never did, nor will it for a while, possess this important trait. Therefore I don’t, nor will I ever, consider that aborted fetus human. A “potential human” yes, but as far as I’m concerned, it never reached human status. They were never, at any point, what I would consider “alive.”
Those of you that are paying attention noticed I said “not for a while”. This is because a case can be made (as has been made very effectively) for the fetus possessing this self awareness at times during the third trimester of pregnancy. This is why I will always and forever be adamantly opposed to third trimester abortions. That’s just creepy, and is, even as I consider it, potential murder.

Now, to deal with flatraters points as I can.

I did not at any point draw an equals sign between a fetus and a tapeworm. It was an analogy and should be treated as such.

You are, I believe, misconstruing personal responsibility. It is not a lack of personal responsibility that drives women to have abortions, it is merely a different interpretation thereof. Lets draw another analogy. Lets say I’m dicing tomatoes, and in the process I manage to severely cut my hand. Maybe I was using a dull knife. Then I go and get a bandage, and dress the wound. Would you have told me not to? I have to take personal responsibility for that wound afterall, I was using a dull knife that slipped and caused me to gash my hand, I have to deal with the wound, whether I wanted it or not, I should have known that there was a chance of gashing my hand. Dressing the wound is showing a lack of personal responsibility right?…..wrong. and you know it. So stop using that magical “responsibility” as your pro choice slaying catch all. It doesn’t work.

As for the claims of effective-ness rating being false, ill own up to not having any information to show you to prove this. I simply cannot locate my old math book, though I know I kept it. I will not admit I am wrong, but as far as this argument is concerned, you can consider this point won due to lack of evidence on my part. I made a statement and am now, much to my dismay, unable to back it up. Though if I ever do find my math book, ill drop you a line. Not that birth control effectiveness ratings really have anything to do with this anyway. At least until women are given one that works 100% unconditionally. If men can walk on the moon, women should sure as hell be able to have that. Yes, right now, the safest form of birth control is not having sex, but it shouldn’t have to remain that way.

As for your bestiality stab, id like to point out, as I have before, that when faced with arguments they cant defeat, people will often resort to three analogies in an effort to appeal to emotion. Those are: nazis, bestiality, and terrorists. Congrats, you nailed one of the three. You knew what I meant when I said it. I want to have sex without risks of kiddies. That doesn’t mean I just want to release a sexual urge. You’re right, there always masturbation. Its not about that. Anyone whose had sex knows there more to it than animal urges.

And as for the “what if your aborted baby is the next Einstein?” A typical argument. What if Hitler had got admitted to art school? What if Gandhi had been born in America? What if MLK was white? What if my prelude had a T3/T4 strapped to it and was being fed a 250 shot of nitrous? It might actually run with a muscle car.
There a lot of what ifs in this world, but our lives shouldn’t be run by them. If we’re going to play that game, what if that baby was the next Hitler? Id be damn glad that woman got an abortion.

[Kurtdg19]

Nice view lazy. Except for your anaology . Dressing the wound would be taking a more resonable approach. Not dressing it would be considered IMO an unresonable approach. I don't know about you, but I don't want blood on my tomatoes . Anyways you couldn't even tell.....they are both red! haha.......hmm bad idea's a brewing in my mind. .......not that I would ever do that..

[Kurtdg19]

Originally Posted by Kurtdg19

Nice view lazy. Except for your anaology . Dressing the wound would be taking a more resonable approach. Not dressing it would be considered IMO an unresonable approach. I don't know about you, but I don't want blood on my tomatoes . Anyways you couldn't even tell.....they are both red! haha.......hmm bad idea's a brewing in my mind. .......not that I would ever do that..

On a side note: I'm dumb. Stop writing so much

[Muscletang]

I think this is pretty much the nail in the coffin for this debate...

[lazysmurff]

Sperm Are Sacred!!!!!!!!

Ahhh!!!!!!!!







*I win*

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

Sperm Are Sacred!!!!!!!!

Ahhh!!!!!!!!

There are Jews in the world, there are Buddhists,
There are Hindus and Mormons and then,
There are those that follow Mohammed,
But I've never been one of them...

I'm a Roman Catholic, and have been since the day I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics,
Is they'll take you as soon as you're warm...

You don't have to be a six-footer,
You don't have to have a great brain,
You don't have to have any clothes on -
You're a Catholic the moment dad came...

because...

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs, on the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for each sperm that can't be found

Every sperm is wanted, every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed in your neighbourhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is useful, every sperm is fine,
God needs everybody's,
Mine
And mine
And mine

Let the Pagan spill theirs,
O'er mountain, hill and plain,
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed in your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

*I win*

Don't think you have yet.

[lazysmurff]

yay, you got the joke!!!!!

[Flatrater]

Don't be so sure it's over yet. But I will say this has been a good debate and we haven't fallen inot flaming each other. I'm not going to cut and paste your post so I can take it apart but I will address some things.

Ok first off I agree the sides will never find a middle ground to when life starts. The problem is to define life. You define life by using cognitive self awareness. I define it another way and no I don't think life starts the second the sperm touches the egg. Life starts when the cell splits.

I like your tomato analogy because it proves my point. If you used s sharp knife instead of a dull knife you wouldn't of cut your hand. Now since you cut your hand and putting a bandaid on it, is taking care of the outcome of your act. But bandaids don't fix the problem they only hide it because if you take the bandaid off the cut is still there. You are only hiding the problem after the fact. The key is to prevent it before the fact. Using birth control will not require the bandaid fix. My training as a auto tech teaches me to find the cause of a problem and not to fix the symptom only. Fixing the sympton will only lead to the same problem coming back, but if I fix the cause the problem will never return.

If you fail to see the difference by using birth control versus not using it because it is not 100% and all is lost. I never said don't have sex but I said if you have sex use birth control. That condom is alot cheaper than an abortion and no parent is needed to buy birth control. Rasing a child is a major responsibliity and your life takes a back seat to the child. Some people can't handle it and they shouldn't have kids. Kids are a major change that you have to accept but my life isn't centered around myself.

Sorry about using the bestiality stab but I was reading a news piece on a man who died having sex with a horse. The farm owner pimps his livestock to people and the one horse ended up killing the guy. So the farm owner dropped the guy off at the hospital. Cops were called and they went to check out the farm owner. When they found out what was going on they couldn't do it athing about it unless the anumals were hurt. they way that law was written if you use chickens then you are hurting them so you can be arrested. As long as the animal is bigger no harm is done so it's legal. I was reading this the same night I posted about bestiality and it was on the tip of my mind since I was laughing so hard about it. So in my warped humor I had to use it.

Now I will tell you alittle about my oldest son, he is a special needs child. At the age of 5 he was dianosed with Autism. It's been a tough time raising him. I can say I had many sleepless nights thinking about him and how to deal with it. Now if I knew that he would be this way before he was born I still wouldn't of consented to an abortion. I love my son and he has filled my life with stress, anger, bitterness and joy, The joy will always outweight the rest. I am thankful he is part of my life. BTW he is also 18 years old and just graduted High school with a high "B" average going to regular classes. No specail classes for him.

This ends up as a choice you have to live with the rest of your life. So if you want an abortion go for it I won't stop you. But you are not the one getting a life sucked out of your organ.