Italians rescue hostage,get fired on by US on way to airport.

[TRD2000]

1) in their training it obviously wasn't impressed upon them to think about where they shot. if it was it wasn't impressed enough.

2) i'm sorry i should have referred to "huge massing" like you did in your prior rant. funny how when i mention it it isn't even a "tactical definition" if you'd ever recieved decent training you'd realise that avoiding presenting targets should be covered BEFORE going into combat.

your third accusation is merely an attempt at a snipe at me.. it has no value and no place.

did you even bother to look at the link before, you accuse me of pulling it out of the air and yet you have where i got it right there. open your eyes and look where you're shooting.

[Twitch1]

HAHAHA! I find it just ridiculous the way some people post things here. Just cutting and pasting a news blurb is not even an attempt at presenting a kernal of thought pro or con regarding a topic. It just floats like a turn in the punch bowl without ties to anything. Then as folks comment on the "story" they're attacked.

My point remains- and it's not sniping at trd2000 personally- you, meaning you all- have no latitude for meaningful comment about a situation that developed in a combat zone if you have never been in-country. If you were you'd know better than to 2nd guess what some grunt does half a world away.

[RSX-S777]

I suppose we should all time travel back to Vietnam, smoke some dope and kill some commies so we can earn the right to voice our opinions. Look Rambo, common sense is common sense, no matter what year it is, or what the circumstances are. If you want to defend senseless acts and excuse irrational behavior basically on the grounds that "shit happens-you guys don't get it", it isn't going to fly. If my tax dollars (grudgingly) are paying for your allegedly superior training, your weapons, your war- at least do me the courtesy of using your fucking brain while you're out there wearing an American flag on your arm and representing my country. Furthermore, this whole tragic fiasco seems to have originated at the command level- some desk jockey working out of one of Saddam's Baghdad palaces who dropped the ball. So the word never got to the actual soldiers in the field that the Italian agents were coming. Granted, the soldiers' reactions may be understandable, albeit rash. But what's your excuse in defense of the command? You don't have to have spent time "in country", waded through a pile of dead bodies or rammed an M60 up a Vietcong's ass to know a blatant fuckup when you see one.

[Twitch1]

You make a lot of allegations as to who and what to blame without substantiation. Do you have personal knowledge of chain of command and/or rules of engagement in this particular instance? I don't either. Neither one of us was there. Anyone who has never had their existance in peril 24 hours a day for 13 months has absolutely no idea how they would react to an event in a combat zone.

Whatever the ultimate reason is that communication was not made, the incident is regretable but it's over and ther's no do overs. None of it will add time to my or your life or put more or less money in my or your bank account. I just feel sorry for the guys that pulled the trigger in a effort to protect their comrades when they found out it was not the enemy.

There 'blantant fuck ups' every day in every war. Same goes for our daily lives when there's a big traffic accident or plane crash or a guy slices the throats of his 4 kids. Why is is this incident so special?

No one is more anti-war than someone like me who has seen it up close and personal. I don't want our brothers to be there. But since I have no control over that I want as many of them as possible to come home and to do whatever it takes for that to happen.

To no one in particular- There are some people that don't want that. They secretly wring their hands in glee when some grunt gets killed like it's going to make them more cool by feeding off the dead's life force or something.

Incident closed. It's time to move on folks.

[taranaki]

Sorry Twitch, YOU MAY BE HAPPY TO EXCUSE AN UNLAWFUL KILLING AND WALK AWAY FROM IT, BUT THERE ARE WIDER ISSUES HERE.

The fact that this incident made news was becuase an American soldier inadequately identified his target and killed an ally. That soldier should be courtmartialled so that those who have been left widowed and orphaned by his carelessness can be assured that everything was done according to the rule of law and that there was no other possible outcome to this incident.Trying to bury the truth with "Incident closed. It's time to move on folks." instead of going through the incident carefully and learning from it will only result in more of the same.There are wisespread reports that this kind of foulup happens on a regular basis with Iraqi victims, and their losses are no less excusable than this case.

Twitch, if you intend to use the 'shit happens in a war zone' argument, let's see your President admit his biggest lie. Way back in May 2003, he lied to the world from the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln.

Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed. And now our coalition is engaged in securing and reconstructing that country.

Two years on,more Marines have died during that 'securing and reconstructing' than in the full assault on Iraq's armed forces.

Two years on, the troops are still so jumpy that they would rather kill the occupants of oncoming traffic than identify them as bona fide targets.

Two years on, the 'democracy' that Bush promised the Iraqis that his troops 'liberated' has still not materialised.The elections have changed nothing,Iraq remains a nation devided by religious extremism.

Despite the occupation for two years by the most effective army in the world, the road to the airport in Iraq's capital city is so dangerous that people are being executed out of sheer fear by US soldiers.

Two years on, despite finding no evidence of the weapons that they came looking for, despite removing Saddam Hussein and damn near levelling whole cities in the fight against 'insurgents', despite giving the people the elections that you claim they wanted so badly, the fighting goes on.The casualty list keeps growing, and the recruiting of fresh blood to be spilt in Iraq gets still more vigorous. There's no peace in sight, the campaign has failed, and there is no exit strategy.

If ones own allies are not safe in a 'liberated' country, you have failed to liberate it.Bush should admit that he's fucked it up completely and step aside like a man.

[Twitch1]

First of all there is no "unlawful" in a warzone in a friendly fire accident that was not premeditated. You keep ragging on it. These things have happened on every side in every war. Should we go back in time and attempt to right every incident? It's IS over. Why flog it to death? To what end?

Don't you imagine there are Iraqi forces that have fragged some civilians too. Where were all the indignant people when Saddam was murdering hundreds of thoudands of his people? When you heard the 1st reports were you demanding immediate sanctions and an array of other demands as a private individual in a foreign country?

Your fixation on foreign politicians is consuming you for no good reason. Why let something eat on your subconscious when there is absolutely nothing you can do about it?

So you feel the way you feel. What are you going to do about it? Nothing but preach from the bully pulpit of this quite insignificant forum.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by taranaki

Therein lies your problem.You refuse to accrept facts on the basis of where they came from.I'd say the military have far more reason to lie to cover their ass than the victims.

What facts I only see lies from a liar. We have a person whom claims she was kidnapped the day before the Italain government had an important vote on Iraq. We have a person who made a phone call on her cell phone while she was kidnapped. We have a person who claims the US soldiers targeted her on purpose. I see too many holes in her story to believe her.

[TRD2000]

Originally Posted by Flatrater

What facts I only see lies from a liar. We have a person whom claims she was kidnapped the day before the Italain government had an important vote on Iraq. We have a person who made a phone call on her cell phone while she was kidnapped. We have a person who claims the US soldiers targeted her on purpose. I see too many holes in her story to believe her.

SO NAME ONE OR ACTUALLY PROVIDE SOME SORT OF NON COINCIDENTAL INFORMATION TO BACK UP YOUR ACCUSATIONS. OR ARE YOU SOMEHOW EXEMPT FROM THAT?... AGAIN

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by Twitch1

First of all there is no "unlawful" in a warzone

Okay, shoot a few Marines and see if you get away without a coutrmartial.These crimes go unpunished because they are committed agains allies and those who are supposedly being liberated.

But it's a start that you admit trhat it's a war zone.Beats the hell out of pretending that you are there to help these people.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by TRD2000

SO NAME ONE OR ACTUALLY PROVIDE SOME SORT OF NON COINCIDENTAL INFORMATION TO BACK UP YOUR ACCUSATIONS. OR ARE YOU SOMEHOW EXEMPT FROM THAT?... AGAIN

Please stop flaming flatrater, he's very sensitive about being insulted.If you go back and read his post again, he does name the person who he claims is a liar.Surprise surprise, it's one of the victims of this cowardly and incompetent shooting spree.It has become standard procedure in this forum to blame the victims when the US military fucks up yet again.

Iraqi civilians get killed every day, it's their fault for being there.
Infrastructure got bombed to hell it's Saddam's fault for being in charge.
People get shot at for approaching checkpoints at 30mph,it's their fault for 'speeding'.

Frankly its sickening the amount of lies that people are prepared to swallow rather than admit that Bush and his cronies are evil.For those who are too cowardly to challenge their own governments lies to then turn round and accuse the victims of lying is beneath contempt.

[SnoopisTDI]

Originally Posted by taranaki

That soldier should be courtmartialled

I doubt anyone is getting courtmartialed for following SOP(or ROE, I guess it would be). The people operating the checkpoint say the car was going much faster than they admit. What I want to know is, where's the video? I would think they would keep some kind of video record of checkpoints. That would answer a lot of questions.

I don't think what happened at the checkpoint is the problem- the problem was the communication beforehand. Either the Italians didn't tell us, or someone didn't notify the guys running checkpoints. That's where the blame needs to be placed, not on the guys who were doing what they're told.

There are probably thousands of members of the press over there- why hasn't one of them driven through a checkpoint to show us what it's like? That could answer some questions too.

Is this really the car? Look at all the bullet holes!

[Twitch1]

taranaki- where do you get off as the saintly authority calling an accident a "crime" when all around it agreed that it is accidental? And it's just your lone opinion that anyone should be courtmartialled. I'm certain that the Theater Command will take that under advisemnent though.

Snoopis- these guys get off in petty tirades of anti-American harangues. It's just like the 60s again and mofos are running around like parodies quoting out of Mao's Little Red Book. "Yankee dogs!" "Imperialsts!" What drama! HAHAHA!

The puzzling thing I wonder about is what incident has poisoned their lives so they find it necessary to preach about the imminent downfall of American society and its evil people? What did any American ever do that negatively impacts their lives on a daily basis so as they can not focus on their personal lives? What have we done that is actively damaging their families and pets to the exclusion of all other things? How have we impeded their ability to enjoy a monetary income? Why, if they live in some sort of utopian land of plenty do they find it compelling to sling mud at our "corrupt" society? It's quite like an ex-alcoholic babbling on to anyone who will listen about the evils of booze. If they can't handle it no one should be allowed to.

There's nothing but constant venom radiating about basically nothing. I was wondering what happened to the hate that people like Stalin and Hitler perpetuated. It's out there.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by SnoopisTDI

Is this really the car? Look at all the bullet holes!

Did I misunderstand the whole story about this incident? I thought there were several hundred rounds fired at this car. Did they take it to the body shop before taking pictures?

[SnoopisTDI]

Originally Posted by DGB454

Did I misunderstand the whole story about this incident? I thought there were several hundred rounds fired at this car. Did they take it to the body shop before taking pictures?

I believe the reporter even said she was picking up handfuls of bullets from inside the car. I've seen pictures of several different cars, mostly file photos from the Associated Press or something like that. It's like they just find a picture of some beat-up car to give us some pretty(or not so pretty) pictures to look at. I think this one is supposed to be the car- but who knows.

I have a feeling this story will quietly disappear, and we'll never really know much about what happened.

[TRD2000]

Originally Posted by Twitch1

taranaki- where do you get off as the saintly authority calling an accident a "crime" when all around it agreed that it is accidental?

haha what a load of mindless crap! the Journo ex-hostage went beyond saying it was not accidental, she said it was DELIBERATE! but i suppose she wasn't really around it...

wouldn't be surprised if that WAS the car...look at all the stray rounds... guess those marines really were good shots... they got the guy right in the head.