God's Will VS. God's Percieved Will.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Boy, that's quite a mouthful you have attributed to me.

The first post in this thread gave some excellent examples about the logical inconsistencies of religion. Since you are obviously capable of reading, I had assumed you had actually read them and I did not have to repeat them. My point is that those inconsistencies would be further perpetuated by equally illogical posts, such as yours.

Illogical to you.

You see, while your post you made to answer 'blokes questions was very thoughtful, it relied on the thoroughly illogical concept that there actually IS a God.................which was the point of this thread in the first place.....how can his will exist when his alleged behaviour makes no sense............

So we are talking about the exhistance of God? I thought we were talking about people attributing things (good or bad) to God. Silly me. Apparently silly everyone else too.

Finally I never accused you of being illogical or inconsistent..........just your argument.

Actually yes you did. My arguement is what I am about in a way. My arguement is about what I believe and what I know. If my arguement is illogical and inconsistent then so am I.

I think that you are a very decent fellow; I look forward to your posts, so please do not take anything I say personally.............just because I do find your religious posts to be an amusing torrent of irrationality does not mean they are not worthy of respect. If everyone was as allegedly "bigoted" as me there would be no pint to this exercise.

Now if that isn't a back handed compliment then I don't know what is.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

people keep comming back to free will (im not sure why) and have yet to give an explination as to why god would give us a free will. why? what on earth does it do for him?

Free will exist whether you believe in God or not. What does it do for God? It gives Him people who choose to follow him and are not just puppets forced to choose Him. Would you rather have your wife love you or just be married to you because ypu somehow made her marry you?

[2strokebloke]

In a way it is all Gods will. If God didn't want it to happen he could intervene. Or he could simply not intervene and let it happen. Either way isn't that Gods will?

So if everything is God's will then, abortion is ok by God right?

[youngvr4]

what happens to an evil man hapens to a holy man. while on earth, earthly things will happen to you.

"IF" god wanted to controll everything he could. but instead there is free will, what dgb454 has been trying to say.

the things that god controlls....... we will never know. what gods will is, we will never have understanding! as was stated, humans tend to say "it was gods will" to make themselves feel better. when in all reality that might not be the case.

to humans, to die seems to be the end. though as the bible speaks, to die is to be born, in the lords eyes.

life is only the beginning.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by 2strokebloke

So if everything is God's will then, abortion is ok by God right?

Being OK with something is not the same a allowing it to happen.

How can I explain this? Let's say my son wants to try drugs. I can force him to stay home and never go out. This would greatly limit his ability to get into drugs. I can force him to do a lot of things but I don't. The reason I don't is because I want him to make a lot of decisions on his own.
I want him to grow into a mature , responsible person. So because I allow him to make that decision on his own doesn't mean I am OK with it.

I don't know if that helps.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by youngvr4

what happens to an evil man hapens to a holy man. while on earth, earthly things will happen to you.

"IF" god wanted to controll everything he could. but instead there is free will, what dgb454 has been trying to say.

the things that god controlls....... we will never know. what gods will is, we will never have understanding! as was stated, humans tend to say "it was gods will" to make themselves feel better. when in all reality that might not be the case.

to humans, to die seems to be the end. though as the bible speaks, to die is to be born, in the lords eyes.

life is only the beginning.

Question.
Do you believe it is possible to understand the nature(or the personality) of God?

I'm not looking for a right or wrong answer. I am just curious as to how you think about it.

Later.

[2strokebloke]

So then, it's safe to say that circumcision is man's will, not Gods, he just doesn't stop us 'cause he likes it when we're stupid.

[youngvr4]

Originally Posted by DGB454

Question.
Do you believe it is possible to understand the nature(or the personality) of God?

I'm not looking for a right or wrong answer. I am just curious as to how you think about it.

Later.

we are like him in many ways. but to understand the nature of him........... No. to somewhat understand his personality, yes, somewhat.

he's funny to me
seriously

[lazysmurff]

so what im getting is: it's god will to allow things like abortions, and gay rights (and eating shrimp for that matter) to happen, not because he likes that we're breaking his "laws" but because he would rather us break his laws, than follow him blindly?

but why? why create a bunch of people, create a bunch of rules, and then say "fine by me if you break these rules."

if god has a "plan" then certainly the breaking of god's laws are a part of god's plan, so jane doe having an abortion is part of gods plan. should jane doe then be punished in the after life for simply participating in gods plan?

im getting wayyyyy off topic, i'll stop now

[DGB454]

Excellent questions.
God does have a plan. It's up to us whether we participate (or be a part of it) in it. His plan will continue no matter what we choose. If we choose to be in that plan then that also means getting right with God. If we choose not to be a part of that plan then He won't stop us. Is it fine with him that we don't participate? He isn't happy about it and will try and bring you into that plan but won't force you to be in it. He won't force you to love Him and follow his "rules".

I have a hard time with the whole rules thing. If you choose to be a part of Gods plan then these aren't rules that you have to memorize and follow to the letter. These are just things that are in your nature as a decent human being. Chances are you are already following these "rules" if you are a decent person. Some people may have a different view of what is acceptable behavior but as a Christian those views may change somewhat. Especially as you get to know the "personality" or the mind of God.


Youngvr4:

Thanks for the response.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by 2strokebloke

So then, it's safe to say that circumcision is man's will, not Gods, he just doesn't stop us 'cause he likes it when we're stupid.

Well... I guess it's kind of like a tattoo or wearing your hair long or short. Do it or don't do it. What difference does it make?

Originally curcumsission was a sign of being a Jewish man. Why circumsission and not something like getting your right pinky cut off I have no idea. Possibly because it wasn't as evident as something that was in sight by the general public. I'm sure there was a reason but I haven't looked into it. Today Jewish males still have it done for the original reason but those not Jewish do it for an entirely different reason.
Does God like that we do it? My personal opinion is that he probably doesn't care one way or the other.

[2strokebloke]

Originally Posted by DGB454

Being OK with something is not the same a allowing it to happen.

I've heard alot of christians claim that you're either for something or against it. You know, if you see somebody doing something you wouldn't personally do, but you don't stop them or say anything to them, that you're just as guilty as they are? There's no feeling of "it's their life, let them screw it up" so perhaps this opinion (which seems very popular amongst them) isn't shared by their God? I assume that God must in all actuality be much more laid back, and far less vengeful and hateful than alot of people try to make him out to be.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by 2strokebloke

I've heard alot of christians claim that you're either for something or against it.

True. Most of the time things are either black or white. There isn't as much of a grey area that people like to believe there is. (IMO)

You know, if you see somebody doing something you wouldn't personally do, but you don't stop them or say anything to them, that you're just as guilty as they are?

If someone was hurting someone else then of course I would stop them. If they were about to hurt themselve then I would also try and stop them. If someone was going to do something I thought of as moraly wrong should I stop them? I can try and influence them if I knew them. I can try and influence them even if I don't know them but it's somewhat harder to do that. It's hard to force my own moral values on someone else. Sometimes the best way to lead is by example and not force. When Christ walked the earth I am sure he saw many things he saw a wrong. Sometimes he approached those doing wrong and sometimes he preached against their behavior. Jumping in is not always the best answer.

There's no feeling of "it's their life, let them screw it up" so perhaps this opinion (which seems very popular amongst them) isn't shared by their God?

Actually sometimes there is a feeling of "it's their life, let them screw it up." I am only human and am not perfect. In the case of Christ there is never that feeling. If there was then he wouldn't have died for everyone. He would have only died for a few that he liked or not died at all.

I assume that God must in all actuality be much more laid back, and far less vengeful and hateful than alot of people try to make him out to be.

Perhaps. I don't see God as vengeful. I know people who do but I think that's their relationship with him. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing. They have a relationship with him so that's what's important.

[sivic02]

The bible explination of this would be going back to adam and eve times. God made a perfect world without any problems, then God made adam and then he made eve out of a rib instead of a smarter bone so she decided to do what God didnt want them to do, which is what women do, so she ate the apple off the forbidden tree, God got pissed and said screw it, if this is how yall are going to be then go to hell for all i care, its in your hands now. Which is where we are today. But in my opinion it is Gods will for us to do what we do. If someone is killed its Gods will, if someone has an abortion its Gods will. If someone believes in God completely and unconditionally then they cant say anything different. Dont get me wrong im not a die hard christian, I have problems with every religion I was just raised Catholic which is why I know these stories out of the bible, because the book of Catholic church stories only has 365 chapters so they have to start back over each year so you hear them too often.

[DGB454]

I'm not sure where to begin.

1. What book,chapter and verse is it where the Bible says "he made eve out of a rib instead of a smarter bone " ?

2. Same question for "God got pissed and said screw it, if this is how yall are going to be then go to hell for all i care, its in your hands now" ?

I'm not Catholic so I admit that I am not as familiar with their rendition of the Bible as I am with the version I use but I am pretty sure that all the books I have are for the most part identicle to your version. You do have a few more books in yours that we don't though so maybe they are in those books?