engines from different eras

[wedgemotor]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

Mischa, don't make the mistake of buying the crap about "you can't make a Pontiac run, you MUST use a Chevy". If you do, in a car as heavy as that Tempest, you'll get your doors handed to you nearly every time you run against a similar car with either BBC or a Pontiac (400 or bigger). This is especially true with streetable cars.
Or are you considering a 350 Pontiac? I recommend against it, as it does not respond to high performance modifications as well as the 350 Chevy, or the 400 Pontiac. Internal geometry is completely different. A 350 Pontiac is NOT the same as a 350 Chevy (or Buick, OR Olds..).
A '69 350 Chevy was available anywhere from 220 (2-bbl) horsepower to 370. These are "gross" numbers, not to be confused with the later rating of "net" numbers. Rule of thumb is to multiply "net" numbers by 1.2 to get "gross" numbers. Of course, you can go the other direction, too. An '82 350 Chevy is useless as delivered, from a performance point of view. The heads, cam and induction MUST be modified to gain anything from it.
The '71 model year is the "line in the sand" for performance engines, with only a couple of notable exceptions, until the late '90s when LS-1 came around. That was the year ('71) when the government mandate for use of "regular" fuel was implemented. The result was horsepower falling off the table for years to come.
The 440 question is valid, but there's an important point missed. The earlier 440s with higher compression and more aggressive cams, were for high performance, period. The later (and earlier low compression) version is for trucks and full-sized cars. The power output and RPM range are aimed at a completely different purpose. Don't confuse power for trucks with power for hot rods...

You state the 350 Pontiac does not respond to performance mods as well as a Chevy 350. WRONG! check out rock n roll engineering for there pump gas 350 buildup. 87 octane and over 530 HP

[MrPbody]

Mr. Fulper has been known to "fudge" numbers over the years. He has also found himself on the outside, looking in, in the Pontiac community. If you're looking for ACCURATE and non-selling information on Pontiac V8s, I suggest you look elsewhere. He bragged about that POS Ventura for a long time. I saw it in Charleston in '02, and it left a trail of blue smoke and knocking sounds everywhere it went. I also submit, if you pumped a 350 Chevy to the same level of tune, it would STOMP the 350P. And that's coming from a Pontiac man! BTW, nobody really cares about an 1/8 mile "record".
Mr. Fulper and RRE are also conspicuous by their absense, in Jim Hand's recent book "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s".

Now to this other "Mr. P-Body". I have never seen or heard anyone using the moniker before this post! It's okay, I have no legal ties to the nickname. Mine comes from an affection for the Fiero. (GM "P" body). I've been using it online for about 6 years, mostly on the Pontiac sites. Where do you get yours? BTW, welcome aboard! You'll find some crying and whining about personal taste versus reality here, but in general, after sifting through the BS, you'll gain some good information. Watch out for the snipers in the bushes. If you step on their personal brand or style, they'll come at you with insults and diversion. And above all, DON'T CONFUSE THEM WITH FACTS!

Comparing the small Dodge to the small Chevy, as to the need of 4-bolt mains, is apples-to-donuts. First, the VAST majority of the small Dodges are/were 2-bolt. The main saddles and bulkheads are more rigid than that of the Chevy. Some of the 340 T/As and MAYBE 6-Packs were 4-bolt. I've only seen a few over the years. On the flipside, the VAST majority of 350 Chevys, made before '87, WERE 4-bolts. From a shop's perspective, probably 70% of 350s we see are 4-bolt. That includes the restorations and truck applications, as well as the "hot rods".
The Chevy block has issues with cap walk and distortion, the Dodge simply doesn't share. Also, the Dodge performance engines (360s, in stock form, don't qualify as "performance") were virtually all forged steel crankshafts, as well, where the steel cranks in Chevys are a real "prize". The crank is another reason for the 4-bolt caps. The iron crank is much more rigid than the forging, and the block can't take the distortion from harmonics usually absorbed by the steel crank.
And how did big blocks get into this mix? ZERO of the MOPAR B and RB blocks are 4-bolt from the factory. ONLY the Hemi, and it is a "cross-bolt" system, not similar to other 4-bolt arrangements. We're in process of upgrading a 440 block right now, with ProGram Engineering "cross-bolt" caps. It will be a 700-plus HP "street" (more like PRO street...) 499 CID "wedge". AWESOME engines, these RBs.
BBCs have 4-bolt caps on ALL "high performance" and "heavy duty" blocks. While one can build a very stout 402 or 350-hoprse 396, 4-bolt caps are unnecessary until power output exceeds 700, and RPM exceeds 7,500. Bring that down about 1,000 RPM for 454.

The "other" Mr. P-Body (I think we're BOTH "real")

Jim

[MR P BODY]

Mr P
Thanks for the welcome, its funny that use use it also, I hadnt heard of
anyone before that used it. The reason that I use it is that I race a
Plymouth Sundance and here at Chrysler where I work its refered to as a
P body(body line, pre production) same type of thing over at GM
Well I tried to put a pic in here but it doesnt want to play, I'll see if I can
at some other time
Have a happy new years

[MrPbody]

Race a Sundance? A SUNDANCE??? I suppose there are as many variations on the theme, as there are guys doing it. Is that a drag car with a V8? Or a road racer, relatively stock? I'm curious. There was a man here (Richmond, VA) that ran a Sundance for a while, but he broke an axle and bounced it off the guard rail. It has a Dodge Challenger (the Jap one) body now. Good runner. 346 CID and it goes low 10s. It's a "foot brake" bracket car.
Where do you work for Chrysler? Again, just curious. From your answer, I assume (always a dangerous proposition...) the "P" designation refers to any pre-production car? The Fiero is a "P" body, like Firebird is an "F" body. Fiero is the purist form of Pontiac since the corporate overlays began in the '50s. That is, no other GM division built anything on that platform. As a "Dodge" guy, you probably don't care. It's okay, I just like to share...
Best of the New Year to you (and to ALL reading this!).

Jim

[wedgemotor]

I am aware of the pissing match between Pontiac rivals, and you are right mr. P-body. I have never personally owned a fast 350 Pontiac, I did have a 71 Lemans sport 350, here is the specs. 68 block and heads, comp 268h cam, performer intake, holley 600. It really was not all that responsive, as I remember. I was taking that of other people's (Fulper's) word. You are right about a 350 being able to make power cheaper than anything though, but parts need to be selected carefully. There is a vast aftermarket just waiting to gobble up people's SBC earning dollars. As far as 340's go, I can speak with some experience, since I have owned a few. No 340 ever came with four bolt caps stock. The T/A block as you refer to has provisional material for that so Trans Am racers could machine them for that. Also the cylinder head or 1970 "J" heads use offset rocker arms do to casting differences inherent with the TA head. I know because I have a set on my 70 Swinger right now, and let me tell you they are the best heads you can get. I am a big 340 fan, not much so for the 360. I realize that with certain parts a 360 will run, but the 340 was oversquare, had forged pistons, with full floating pins stock! Try to find that with a 350 Chevy! Anyway it is cool to see there is so many people on here with so much knowledge on cars.

[BleedDodge]

This is his picture from his signature on Moparts:



And underneath it says:

9.47 @ 142.5mph, 1.25 60 ft,395 ci, W-2 heads
2400 lbs

[soxs]

All production 340 pistons were cast. They were the heaviest at 719gr per. Actually the 360 piston at 584gr was lighter than the 318 at 592. This from a smaller bore and a longer stoke with the same lenth rods as a 340.
Also there is no performance advantage to T/A heads as cast. The intake rocker was offset and the pushrod hole was elongated to provide provision for porting.
Any J,U,X,O or Z head has a poor flowing exhaust port. T/A heads could have any stampings of the above. The 360 "308" heads will outperform any of the earlier heads due to a far superior exhaust flowing port.
I am currently looking around for a stock bore 360 short block for a stroker. Putting the 340 on the shelf. What the details of your Swinger Wedge?

[wedgemotor]

The "308" head as you described, has a potentially better exhaust flow fully ported. The stock 308 head will not outflow the 915, I guarantee that if I swapped bone stock heads right now, I would see my top end performance decline. As far as the heavier piston, of course it does. it's 40 thousandths bigger, and also taller than the 360. The bottom line is if you took Identically prepared w-2's and I put them on a 10.5 340, and you put in the same with the 360, the 340 is going to outperform the 360. Make more horsepower, rev higher and last longer. The only advantage a 360 has over a 340 is the larger crank diameter, but you can negate that due to it's cast design, except for 71 360's. -70 Swinger 340 #s match, keith black hyper pistons (.030) TA heads 284 cam stock intake with edelbrock carb headers, elec ign 4-speed orig 3.91 sure grip FY1 yellow car, bench seat - best 1/4 time 13.71 @ 102. very reliable, nothing like a 4-speed!

[MrPbody]

For street-performance, and not max-power, I like the longer stroke of the 360 better. Keep the revs under 6,500, and the cast crank is not a liability. The low-end torque is the desired performance quality sought by most street-oriented customers. This is especially true when car weight exceeds 3,500 lbs.
Floating pins are desired for engines revving above 6,000 for extended periods, or over 7,500 for short bursts. All the 273s and early 318s (both head styles) were floaters. So were the earlier 340s. I've done 2 340s (one '73 and one '74) with the 360 heads (factory emmission stuff) in the last couple of years. Both were pressed pins. All the 360s (that I've seen) are pressed.
Chevrolet was one of the earliest V8s without floating pins. A 302 can rev well past 7,500 without issue. We use pressed pins in most of the lower level circle track engines, including the Dodges. Pressed pins are not a liability if everything is done correctly, and much less failure-prone. Bushing the rod and adding the locks complicates things, and adds more parts to fail.
Don't misunderstand. This is not to say floaters don't have their place. They most certainly do. But they are not necessary for a street machine, under most conditions.
Soxs, please stop trying to compare features across engine families. Apples-to-donuts. Each engine family has advantages AND disadvantages. None are exactly alike. An example would be to figure a way to install small block Chevy race heads on your Dodge small block. The SBC head is where the advantage is, and nobody makes a better design for a smaller cubed race engine. As much as I like to see Chevys lose, I'm not stupid about them. They are the MOST popular race engine for many good reasons. And it isn't the lower cost. The lower cost is a by-product of the popularity.

P(b), I like the way that front end comes up! Nice looking car... Fast, too! Nice job.

[wedgemotor]

mr pbody, I can understand where your coming from with the torque thing and in most cicumstances this would work. I just am speaking from my experiences with both engines. All of the 340 engines I had responded better with light mods, and that added torque you say was never enough to overcome the top end charge of the 340's. To understand this, in my experience 340 should not have less than a 3.91 gear out back, they love it. I have had 340 cars with 2.91's 3.23's, 3.55's and two cars with 3.91's. I know this is as you say "apples to oranges" but the cars without those gears just never responded that way. The two A-body 360 cars had 3.91's also, but didn't run that well this way. -Not all early SBC motors were full floaters. Yes Chevy definately has a lock on the amount of cylinder heads they offer, and designs are plentify, but most of the w series heads will keep up with these heads, although they are considerably more expensive. Yes Chevy heads will always be cheaper, and yes they are plentiful, but why isn't everyone buying them? Same reason a guy buys a pontiac, or Buick, or whatever. He feels there is pontential to be found in these engines that cannot be found in a chevy. A chevy engine isn't always the answer. I realize again that in this day and age you can make ANYTHING go fast, so that is why people don't pick Chevy. Bottom line is- you want to make power- buy a Hemi. You want to make power cheap- buy a BBC.

[MR P BODY]

Originally Posted by BleedDodge

This is his picture from his signature on Moparts:



And underneath it says:

9.47 @ 142.5mph, 1.25 60 ft,395 ci, W-2 heads
2400 lbs

BleedDodge, thanks for posting my pic, it sure wasnt happening for me
thanks again
Thanks P (a)...LOL, I changed my IC around so that its not climbing
that high any more

[soxs]

First of all the 308 heads will outflow and outperform any mopar sb heads before the magnum era. Thats a fact.
The 360 vs 340 debate will go on forever. For myself i'll stroke a 360 before a 340. I luv my 340 but i'm not interested in blowing it up somewhere along the line. A 360 buildup is cheaper and will produce more bang for the buck. The 20 extra cubes. the longer stroke at less rpm means more torque and it will live longer. As for my 69 Swinger I saw a timeslip from the previous owner and it was [email protected] you thats at very close to sealevel track. Mine is a stick also with 295s out back.
As far as the hemi thing....Most well tuned 440s would beat a well tuned hemi in the the 1/4. If the 1320 was 1520 the hemi wins every time.

[wedgemotor]

so just slapping on a 308 head just outflows x heads and 915 heads? I have heard of people using the 308 before but it is not all that common I guess. Did you ever see that 68 Dart GTS 340 cross ram car, I think he has those heads and goes 11's and it's a 4-speed to boot!

[wedgemotor]

How did you get the 295's to fit? My car has 235/60 radials on steelies and it barely fits. Did you massage your wheelwells?

[MR P BODY]

Originally Posted by soxs

First of all the 308 heads will outflow and outperform any mopar sb heads before the magnum era. Thats a fact.
The 360 vs 340 debate will go on forever. For myself i'll stroke a 360 before a 340. I luv my 340 but i'm not interested in blowing it up somewhere along the line. A 360 buildup is cheaper and will produce more bang for the buck. The 20 extra cubes. the longer stroke at less rpm means more torque and it will live longer. As for my 69 Swinger I saw a timeslip from the previous owner and it was [email protected] you thats at very close to sealevel track. Mine is a stick also with 295s out back.
As far as the hemi thing....Most well tuned 440s would beat a well tuned hemi in the the 1/4. If the 1320 was 1520 the hemi wins every time.

If you are just trying to save the 340 block thats one thing, BUT if you
are stroking either the 340 block starts out with a bigger bore and can
be bored out farther than the 360, so you would come out with more
cubes if you went with the 340 block, plus the 340 's have less dia. on
the mains so you end up with less drag on the crank