Hehe. Continue the abortion debate from the Bush vs. Kerry thread here!

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by Oz

If best effort is not going to be made raising the child in terms of love, support, encouragement and all of that crap, abortion is definately a feasable option.

Then I suggest we start slaughtering the homeless and depressed. They dont seem to have much support encouragement and that kind of crap.

With overpopulation imminenet or already present in many countries, the last thing we need is a child no one wants or cares about becoming a tax payers responsibility.

There is no overpopulation problem. In fact, Europe is on the verge of feeling the effects of population contraction. The only reason that overall population is going up is because of immigration, not reproduction.

If we can eliminate people who affect the tax roles then my suggestion on whiping out the homeless and depressed should also include welfare recipients. Line them up and use them as target practice. Sure, it doesn't hurt as much as being dismembered and sucked out a hose, but it'll get the job done.

There would still be heaps of kids available for adoption even if abortion was legal and affordable, so I really don't see a problem.

Adoption is way to difficult. It took my parents almost a year before they could adopt (me). I'm glad my birth mother (teenager who couldn't afford me) didn't have abortion as an option. One my sisters was also adopted and it took my parents almost another year to get her. Thats fucked up.

.
.
.

So, for the third time, which one of you pro-vaccumm hose people wish they were aborted? Who among you are upset that your mom didn't scape you out of the womb because she got a bit tipsy at that party, or because a condom broke, or you were the wrong gender? What teenage mother took you to term that should have left you in the bilogical waste bin?













Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!

[Spyke^]

Great debate.
Seriously, I'm impressed and amazed at the same time that this is such a touchy subject for everyone.

I'd like to ask a question and I hope that it is not considered off topic.
If abortion is murder, then what is the death penalty?
Do the people that favour abortion ( pro-choice so to speak) also agree with the death penalty?
And are the people that say abortion is murder also against the death penalty?
Or, can you have it both ways?

[DGB454]

You can have it both ways. The death penalty is given to people who commit crimes (like murder).
Abortion is the death penalty given to the unborn for committing the crime of being inconvenient.

[tenguzero]

So, for the third time, which one of you pro-vaccumm hose people wish they were aborted? Who among you are upset that your mom didn't scape you out of the womb because she got a bit tipsy at that party, or because a condom broke, or you were the wrong gender? What teenage mother took you to term that should have left you in the bilogical waste bin?

Yogs, no one is answering that question because it's obviously an impassioned appeal that really makes no sense. Why don't we ask the fetus what it would like before the operation is performed?

Anyways, this argument being proposed about just "wiping out" all of the homeless, welfare spongers, and depressed (though I'm not sure when a person with depression become a burden to society...) isn't really applicable to the issue at hand. They may be homeless, and they may be lazy losers, but all of society would agree that they're nonetheless living and sentient. All of society OBVIOUSLY can't see it the same way for an early fetus.

Indeed, I don't think overpopulation will be a problem, at least in respect to the next generation or two in the United States. If anything, we've probably already reached our population peak, for the near future at least. The prime "parenting" generation is currently, in general, apparently too fixated on their careers and personal life to worry about child rearing (unfortunately,) because these are the kind of people who most likely have the base necessary to support a child (monetarily at least, the objectionable use of day-care centers and TV/videogames to babysit children who's parents are too busy for them is yet another issue in itself ) So, the generation that DOES apparently have a dangerous combination of time and, in many of these cases in question, bad moral judgement, is seemingly the one to pick up the slack in the procreation process.

The problem is really NOT welfare-recipients and bums, nor is it these idiot people who sex it up without properly considering the ramifications. It is what is BEHIND all this, what is driving this situation to exist. People have been complaining about lazy, aid-abusing "tax-burden losers" for half a century, and they really don't seem to have slowed our growth that much. Too many people (and this can be seen in the postings in this thread) are far too willing to just say "What we need to do is make these people close their legs" and "these people are sick, hopefully they die in the process" (which is a blatantly dumb response, and serves no purpose other than to reveal the fact that one is seemingly no more "ethical" than the very women they admonish.) This is always the problem. It's like I said earlier, the question should NOT be "Why should abortion be supported?" It should be "Why are we faced with this question in the first place?" And i'm sorry to say this, but simply "making" these people close their legs, or get off their asses and get a job HAS NOT, IS NOT, and apparently WILL NOT WORK.

So, if I may provoke a different branch of discussion in respect to this topic (beyond emotional laments back and forth between the Lifers and Choicers) I'd like to ask this, what do you think should be done to help PREVENT this concern from becoming increasingly hostile? Why do you think these people are so willing to engage in wanton and unsafe sexual activity? I maintain, that the topic of what consititutes a "living being" is out of our hands, scientifically, morally, and religiously. So, if we can't find a SOLUTION to the problem, then perhaps preemptive action is the answer.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by Spyke^

I'd like to ask a question and I hope that it is not considered off topic.
If abortion is murder, then what is the death penalty?

Do the people that favour abortion ( pro-choice so to speak) also agree with the death penalty?

And are the people that say abortion is murder also against the death penalty?

Or, can you have it both ways?

Both ways. The person on death row made the choice to commit their crime. The fetus had no say.













Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

Yogs, no one is answering that question because it's obviously an impassioned appeal that really makes no sense. Why don't we ask the fetus what it would like before the operation is performed?

Good point. Thats what I've been doing. Everyone of us was a fetus and can fully express ourselves right now. So I am asking - do you wish you were aborted?

Anyways, this argument being proposed about just "wiping out" all of the homeless, welfare spongers, and depressed (though I'm not sure when a person with depression become a burden to society...) isn't really applicable to the issue at hand. They may be homeless, and they may be lazy losers, but all of society would agree that they're nonetheless living and sentient. All of society OBVIOUSLY can't see it the same way for an early fetus.

The point was made in using economics as a justification to slaughter the unbort. I don't want the homeless dismembered any more then I want it done to a fetus. Living and sentient huh. Clearly all the above are living so lets skip right over that one. So lets check out sentient.

1. Having sense perception; conscious
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.

The second one is shared by the homeless and a fetus. They certainly struggle against being dismembered. They easily lose the battle, but it is one they all fight. So you must mean the first definition. That must mean we can eliminate anyone who's a vegtable or anyone else who's totally unaware of themselves. Like autistic people who don't understand mortality. Infants don't have any more perception then the fetus. Staning on the slippery slope, a few hours is the difference between a baby and a fetus.

Even saying its an early fetus isn't a good rationalization for murdering the unborn. The slippery slope steps up again and asks who determines what makes the fetus 'early enough'. Perhaps the 3/5s people should be put in charge.

Indeed, I don't think overpopulation will be a problem, at least in respect to the next generation or two in the United States. If anything, we've probably already reached our population peak, for the near future at least. The prime "parenting" generation is currently, in general, apparently too fixated on their careers and personal life to worry about child rearing (unfortunately,) because these are the kind of people who most likely have the base necessary to support a child (monetarily at least, the objectionable use of day-care centers and TV/videogames to babysit children who's parents are too busy for them is yet another issue in itself ) So, the generation that DOES apparently have a dangerous combination of time and, in many of these cases in question, bad moral judgement, is seemingly the one to pick up the slack in the procreation process.

This really doesn't have anything to do with abortion. People have been raving (not you) about overpopulation for almost four centuries now. Its the chicken little syndrome. Everyone thinks that things are harder now or things are worse now, blah blah blah. Its the same story every generation. Each one has their specific problems.

The problem is really NOT welfare-recipients and bums, nor is it these idiot people who sex it up without properly considering the ramifications. It is what is BEHIND all this, what is driving this situation to exist. People have been complaining about lazy, aid-abusing "tax-burden losers" for half a century, and they really don't seem to have slowed our growth that much. Too many people (and this can be seen in the postings in this thread) are far too willing to just say "What we need to do is make these people close their legs" and "these people are sick, hopefully they die in the process" (which is a blatantly dumb response, and serves no purpose other than to reveal the fact that one is seemingly no more "ethical" than the very women they admonish.) This is always the problem. It's like I said earlier, the question should NOT be "Why should abortion be supported?" It should be "Why are we faced with this question in the first place?" And i'm sorry to say this, but simply "making" these people close their legs, or get off their asses and get a job HAS NOT, IS NOT, and apparently WILL NOT WORK.

So, if I may provoke a different branch of discussion in respect to this topic (beyond emotional laments back and forth between the Lifers and Choicers) I'd like to ask this, what do you think should be done to help PREVENT this concern from becoming increasingly hostile? Why do you think these people are so willing to engage in wanton and unsafe sexual activity? I maintain, that the topic of what consititutes a "living being" is out of our hands, scientifically, morally, and religiously. So, if we can't find a SOLUTION to the problem, then perhaps preemptive action is the answer.

Its called cause and effect and living with the consequences of your actions. Because someone made a bad choice does not mean that another should have to suffer because of it.

What constitutes a living being is out of our hands? Sound a bit like considering certain races of people less then human to justify slavery. Aside from that, I don't see any problem at looking for causes and solutions to prevent these things from happening, but not having a plan or workable plan in place should not give carte blance to suck the unborn out a straw.













Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!

[driftu]

it is a pro choice issue.

all the people againest it great don't get it done or don't let your girlfriend or wife get it done.

all the people for great knock yourself out. just remember that for girls the emontional stress that comes with it is brutal and you will never be the same again.

i for one would never accept my girlfriend having one. but i WILL NOT tell another person what to do with there body and the life they created. just like i will never tell a person not to get a tatoo. your body do what you want.

i would rather see a young mother get an abortion then live life resenting the child that ruined their life. if you aren't able to care for a kid then you shouldn't have it. there are other options but abortion is the only sure way to get it done with.

true if you can't care for a kid you shouldn't have sex. so when do you guys start having sex. don't try to be all high and might about not having it we are all human and all have the urge to get laid.

this a pro choice issue let them make it and deal with what happens after that. all you do by taking this option away is open the door for mothers to kill and leave the child in dumpsters or leave them on door steps of city homes.

both the kids and mothers should have a fair shot at life. very few kids grow up to be a productive person if there parents don't give the love and guidness they need.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Like autistic people who don't understand mortality. Infants don't have any more perception then the fetus. Staning on the slippery slope, a few hours is the difference between a baby and a fetus.

Easy Yogs my son is Autistic and he understands mortality!

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

And i'm sorry to say this, but simply "making" these people close their legs, or get off their asses and get a job HAS NOT, IS NOT, and apparently WILL NOT WORK.

I have some years behind me, so I feel I can say this to you.

I have yet to see a woman with crossed legs needing an abortion! Kinda hard getting knocked up with your legs crossed! I mean I know there are some positions to do this with but not with the panties on and legs crossed if you know what I am sayging. And if you are working you have no time for sex so that makes it harder too!

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by Flatrater

Easy Yogs my son is Autistic and he understands mortality!

No disrespect intended. I was only trying to bring up an example that some people do not understand their own mortality and that was a poor choice.













Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

No disrespect intended. I was only trying to bring up an example that some people do not understand their own mortality and that was a poor choice.

I know I understand you were making a point but it hit close to home. Most people fail to understand the life of a person with this diease. Its terrible to go thru life with it. So no problem Yogs.

[tenguzero]

Alright, so how do the Pro-Lifers here suggest we deal with the issue? Should we just outlaw abortions altogether? You do realize people will still have them done one way or another, right? I'm seeing a whole lot of argument here about forcing people to "close their legs" (and Flatrater, I was speaking of "making" them close their legs in a figurative sense, not actually the ACT of physically keeping their legs crossed - and I'm sure even people who work 70 hour work weeks find time for sex!) So, what should we do instead? More education? I'm all for that, but I see a lot of complaining about tax burdens here, and we all know that these education programs will probably cost more money. Should we make them see the pregnancy through, and support their child? That's all well and good, but could we rely on them to see this through correctly? You can't exactly assign a Monitor to them 24 hours a day. The closest thing we have is (at least here in the states, not sure about elsewhere) is DCS, and they aren't necessarily always on the ball. Perhaps adoption? Ok, though there is obviously the potential for complications, and we don't want any child to spend the first 18 years of their life as a ward of the state. Could the adoption guidelines be less restrictive? I should hope they could. I understand it's important to choose foster parents correctly, and it seems (like you said Yogs) that the process is just far too difficult, and is most likely denying a lot of well-deserving parents an equally well-deserving child.

Again, I think there is a lot of institutions out there to help a mother cope instead of having an abortion, the problem is why aren't these institutions making it easier for parents and children. Perhaps a great deal of abortions could be stopped (and not just the legal ones- I'm also talking about the self-inflicted abortions, and that vile act I mentioned earlier, what with the leaving children to die) if mothers-to-be had more reassurance that there would be more easily attainable assistance for them (and I'm not just talking about simply cutting them a check or WIC voucher.) ESPECIALLY these women who were victims of rape, or perhaps the condom broke, or some other unintended incident.

It's no secret that a startling number of people in jail for everything from petty to capital crimes had tough, abusive, neglected, or otherwise tragic upbringings, which apparently, in many cases, served to fuel their acts against society in later life. Where were the parents of these people? Where was these institutions? As nice as it would be to consider this, unfortunately, you can't be there to hold the mother's legs closed. So, what can be done? There's a lot of talk here about not "slaughtering the unborn" but yet I'm not really seeing any solid suggestions as to what could be done.

[thegladhatter]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Then I suggest we start slaughtering the homeless and depressed. They dont seem to have much support encouragement and that kind of crap.

If the pro-life/anti-murder people don't remain steadfast....that's next.

[driftu]

Originally Posted by thegladhatter

If the pro-life/anti-murder people don't remain steadfast....that's next.

well why don't we instead of killing them give em a chance to work. dosn't matter how fucked up their head is they can still do labour. where as a kid ciming into a house with an abusive parent has atleast 15 years of hell that it doesn't deserve anymore then it deserves a quick exit from life. unless you are willing to pay more taxs to open crooked state homes for the abused kids. like the one where they forced the kids to work didn't feed em. used money to raise them to get there new suv.

you gotta ask yourself what is in the best interest of the kid.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by driftu

you gotta ask yourself what is in the best interest of the kid.

I'm pretty sure death isn't it.













Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!