Bad coil pack symptoms

[searcherrr]

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=190&PTSet=A

What is the deal with that MSD coil? Does anyone know? Its supposed to be for our engines, but it looks nothing like the stock coil. Are you supposed to buy 6 of these and piecemeal them together some weird way? If so how?

uzzo - At that price I'd go with the Motorcraft.

[searcherrr]

Whats everyone's opinion on the ACCEL brand of ignition parts?

[uzzo2]

Originally Posted by searcherrr

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=190&PTSet=A

What is the deal with that MSD coil? Does anyone know? Its supposed to be for our engines, but it looks nothing like the stock coil. Are you supposed to buy 6 of these and piecemeal them together some weird way? If so how?

uzzo - At that price I'd go with the Motorcraft.

I looked at that coil, the picture shown doesn't look anything at all like the coil that's on my van. That looks like an older style coil for use with a distributor type system. As far as accel wires go, i have always known them to be good wires. As a matter of fact, when i went to o'reillys to get new wires, that's what i asked for. They brought out a set of them and was explaining how to put them together (the ends). I told them i didn't think those ends would fit on my coil. They asked me what kind of vehicle and i told them ford windstar. They went and got a set of borg-warner wires, i put them on and have been very pleased with the performance until lately. As i mentioned in a previous post it got to acting up the other day and i got a misfire code on #3. I put a can of berrymans in it when i filled it up the other day and it hasn't acted up since. I would have thought if it was fuel related, it would have taken a little more time to work its way through the system. So far, so good, no more hiccups, i'm down to about a half a tank now and i have another can in the car for the next time i fill it up.

[rhandwor]

I would buy the motorcraft coil as its only $20.00 higher. Plus sales tax will about cover shipping.

[searcherrr]

If you installed a lower resistance better performing coil that yields better and more spark wouldn't that burn more gas or is it only gonna burn more gas if you have more spark at the spark plugs (IE: different plugs that burn more)?

[searcherrr]

I'm doing this for more than just me here. I have comparative test results on my 95 3.8L Ignition Coil. I have tested the old one, the new one (OEM) and a 3rd party high performance coil from Accel.

*Note: Just as a heads up, I talked to MSD via email and they say they will be producing a coil for our engines later this year. GOOD NEWS cause I love MSD.


OK Coil Tests (Thanks to tripletdaddy for instructions):

Inspection: The coil even though old is in awesome condition physically. There were no damage marks or cracks to speak of and I have an eagle eye. The only thing wrong with it (can't remember the term for it) was inside the coils themselves were lil black burnt marks in all 6 coils, though I'd say the majority 95-97% of the coil surfaces were still silver.

Reference Diagram for COIL resistance testing:


1. Resistance Tests on OLD OEM Motorcraft COIL:
Primaries (at about 65 degrees F):
12v to 5/1 Pin: .6
12v to 6/2 Pin: .6
12v to 4/3 Pin: .6

Secondaries (at about 65 degrees F):
5/1 Coil: 13.03 k ohms
6/2 Coil: 13.03 k ohms
4/3 Coil: 13.03 k ohms

2. Resistance Tests on NEW OEM Motorcraft COIL:
Primaries (at about 65 degrees F):
12v to 5/1 Pin: .5 - .6
12v to 6/2 Pin: .5 - .6
12v to 4/3 Pin: .5 - .6

Secondaries (at about 65 degrees F):
5/1 Coil: 13.02 k ohms
6/2 Coil: 13.03 - 13.04 k ohms
4/3 Coil: 13.23 k ohms

3. Resistance Tests on NEW Accel High Performance COIL:
*Either gold or gold plated coils.

Primaries (at about 65 degrees F):
12v to 5/1 Pin: .5 - .6
12v to 6/2 Pin: .5 - .6
12v to 4/3 Pin: .5 - .6

Secondaries (at about 65 degrees F):
5/1 Coil: 10.32 k ohms
6/2 Coil: 9.66 k ohms
4/3 Coil: 9.68 k ohms

Conclusion & Specs:
I have heard on this forum from people that the resistance should be the following:
1. Primary resistance should be 0.3 to 1.0 ohms.
2. Secondary resistance should measure 6.5 to 11.5 k-ohms between paired holes.
though I also heard: The reading should be 10,000 to 11,000 ohms
3. Tripletdaddy said:
"I also like to check for any measurable resistance between the primaries and the coil body, and the secondaries and the body to be sure the coil isn't shorting itself out." - I did this too. Checked out.

Using this logic my OLD and NEW Motorcraft coils should both be FAULTY, but I believe the missing element here is HEAT.
I have heard some people heat their coils up in the oven and then test resistance. I've been reluctant to do that cause I don't actually know how hot the body of the coil pack gets and I don't want to ruin a coil pack that is obviously good like my old one seems to be. How hot should I set the oven?

Honestly, I bought a new OEM coil pack and an Accel one to provide feedback to the forum and of course I wanted to see if the Accel one did actually offer better resistance and it does.

Hopefully combined with a new fuel pump (getting installed today) this new Accel coil pack will yield me some good gas mileage finally. We shall see.

[tomj76]

I think you should double check the scale on the ohm meter during the secondary test. While I don't know the numbers for a Ford Windstar coil, it's normally in the thousands of ohms.

This is because you are testing the seconary resistance of a electrical transformer consisting of thousands of turns of a fine wire. The large number of turns are needed to boost the voltage from 12 volts to between 15,000 and 30,000 volts, and the wire is fine to allow it to fit into a small space.

Your meter could have automatically ranged to kohms without you noticing.

[rhandwor]

When using a hot air gun to heat up modules Ford said to stop if you put a drop of water on it and it started to boil. I wouldn't recommend heating a coil much above 200 degrees and not over 210 degrees F.
Not all ovens are calibrated properly use a thermometer.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by tomj76

I think you should double check the scale on the ohm meter during the secondary test. While I don't know the numbers for a Ford Windstar coil, it's normally in the thousands of ohms.

This is because you are testing the seconary resistance of a electrical transformer consisting of thousands of turns of a fine wire. The large number of turns are needed to boost the voltage from 12 volts to between 15,000 and 30,000 volts, and the wire is fine to allow it to fit into a small space.

Your meter could have automatically ranged to kohms without you noticing.

Sorry, I didn't put "k ohms" on there, but thats what they are. I'll go edit it. With this news do you still feel the tests are wrong with the multimeter I'm using?

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by rhandwor

When using a hot air gun to heat up modules Ford said to stop if you put a drop of water on it and it started to boil. I wouldn't recommend heating a coil much above 200 degrees and not over 210 degrees F.
Not all ovens are calibrated properly use a thermometer.

Hot air gun huh.... yet another specialized tool i don't have in my arsenal.

I don't want to melt the coil's body and i'm having a hard time believing the silicone and plastic of the coil get anywhere above 150 degrees due to how the coil is situated in the engine bay. I'm sure the coils themselves get extremely hot, but I bet that heat is quickly dissipated by the surrounding silicone.

At what temperature does plastic or silicone melt?

Who's got hot air guns?

[rhandwor]

Some people use hair dryers available in most households.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by rhandwor

Some people use hair dryers available in most households.

LOL - well shit..... who calls a hair dryer a hot air gun? lol
-I wrote that before googling "hot air gun" lol - now i know.

Will a hair dryer really get it hot enough? Do we even know how hot the coil metal itself should get to test right?

What pisses me off is that I've scoured the FORD CD-ROM several times for coil testing procedures/specs and I haven't found it once. I even 1 by 1 looked through the Pinpoint Tests section and I just do not see it. Why, if resistance testing a coil is the way to find out if its good/bad, would it not be in there?

[wiswind]

You are correct....they bury the coil information in a bunch of "pinpoint" tests.....using a specific "breakout box".
They give resistance readings ...but not in line with what we see...........but what is in the breakout box?.....
Be nice if they Kept It Simple Stupid (KISS) and just gave you basic resistance readings for the coil primary and secondary for coils 1, 2 and 3.
MUCH faster and direct.

I don't know if the readings for the Motorcraft are in specification or not.....I DO like to see the 2ndary readings to be pretty much the same from coil to coil....so you might want to double check as both of the new coils you measured had 1 coil that was a bit higher than the other 2.

Don't forget that radio capacitor......I have not read about them going bad on the windstar......don't forget to connect it back up.
It is not just the radio.....the PCM and other electronic control items don't like the noise either.

I am not big on heat tests......hot air guns can get really hot.....

If it were my vehicle....I would put the new motorcraft coil in......

I am reluctant to recommend a "high performance" coil here...with hotter spark....etc......as we don't have data on how well they do in the windstar.......and more variables and strange problems are the last thing you need to add to the mix.

As far as mileage.....this time of year is really tough to get anything good.......and much of the middle of the USA is going into the deep freeze for the rest of this week.
So....my point is....if it is nasty cold where you are....don't over analyze things......when it gets below zero (F) as we are going here in Milwaukee.....figure that....if it is starting.....running OK......you are doing well.
And if you are dealing with driving in lots of snow......down goes the mileage again.

[pstrbrc]

I've had coild go bad on a 2000 windstar (about 160k miles) and a 2004 Freestar (about 80k miles). Here's how it was diagnosed-
pulled a "misfire on #6" code, so swapped #6 and #2 plug wires on the coil. Cleared codes, then got a "Misfire on #2". #2 and #6 fire off of the same coil, so I wasn't changing the firing order, so when the misfire moved to the other cylinder, the only thing that changed from one cylinder to the other was the coil terminal, so it had to be the coil. If the misfire had stayed on #6, it would be either the plug or the wire.

Hope this helps somebody.

[tripletdaddy]

In general, resistivity in metals increases with temperature increases and decreases with temp decreases. I have an oven that goes down to 170 deg F. In fact I've used it to heat up other auto parts for interference fits, painting, warming up caulking and sealing materials so they spread better, etc. I'd use it long before anything else like a hair drier, etc. It's easy, well regulated, heats evenly, easy to control, even if you have to monitor it with a thermometer in it. I like that even better than heating by boiling an object that can safely be put in water. What's nice about boiling water though, is that it will NEVER go above 212 deg.

Oh, BTW, I thought I mentioned this before, but for your easy reference, my Windstar coil resistance was consistent with the spec I quoted. I don't know if the temp is critical or not, but mine were measured around 30 to 40 deg F. I imagine the spec is for 60 to 70 deg. A 50 deg F change from the spec results in about a 7.5% change in resistance. A 100 deg F change will result in a 15% change. So, a 100 deg F increase gives you a 15% increase in resistance, or the resistance is 115% of your base resistance.