Dealing with peacenics - debate

[Moppie]

Originally posted by gang$tarr


why doesn't your country do that? because it would be a stupid move

Becaasue the State of New York has more land area, and more natural resources than our whole country.
Go learn some high school geography.




Thank you DVS, its nice to have rational discussion about things some times.

You made some good and very valid points. They are all True, and all hold a lot of weight, I even agree with most of them.
(especialy that the US should sort out its own problems first, which as you mentioned are far greater than man Americans realise)

I do however disagree with how you feel the war should be conducted, but thats one of those issues where we won't know the right or wrong of, till its over. At the moment we can only have differnt opinions on it.
(not that we have any control over it anyway)

But one thing is certain, what is occuring at the moment will cause a major Global change for the futrure.
And we are witnessing what will become one of the most significant events in the History of Global civilisation.


DVS I do hope that your in the majority of US citizens, But I fear from what I see here and else where that it is people with closed minds and cave man type attitudes, that rule.


Yogs, your more than welcome to your opionion, but just remeber that Violince will only attract violince, and your flirting dangerously with some of the most violent people in History. They also out number the US population 4-1.
I suggest you try and find some reading or prehaps a kids story video on cultures out side of your own, we live in a very diverse world, American only makes up a very small part of it, and unless everybody can learn to tolerate each other then DVS's crack about building a fall out shelter could have more meaning than it was intended to carry.

[gang$tarr]

Originally posted by Moppie


Becaasue the State of New York has more land area, and more natural resources than our whole country.
Go learn some high school geography.

Yogs, your more than welcome to your opionion, but just remeber that Violince will only attract violince, and your flirting dangerously with some of the most violent people in History. They also out number the US population 4-1.
I suggest you try and find some reading or prehaps a kids story video on cultures out side of your own, we live in a very diverse world, American only makes up a very small part of it, and unless everybody can learn to tolerate each other then DVS's crack about building a fall out shelter could have more meaning than it was intended to carry.

oh my... this was just too funny moppie
You're tellin me to learn some high school geography..... you know what? I think YOU need to learn some high school ENGLISH!! haha
learn to spell Violence i don't think that's a typo, cause you wrote it twice!
before you tell me to get schooling, i think you should first :finger:

and all i'm saying is that it would be stupid to take millions of people into new york and educate them, and feed them.... why don't we wipe their ass for them too? I don't mean to sound harsh here, but what the hell do you think we are? freakin Jesus?

and another thing, wow they out number us 4-1.... what does that matter? really? are they going to throw rocks at us? or maybe try to get sticks and whack us when we go there? That was the stupidest arguement.... maybe you should do some research on the shape of their military

i'm not really tryin to flame you or anything but i just had to comment on these things

[YogsVR4]

Originally posted by Moppie

Yogs, your more than welcome to your opionion, but just remeber that Violince will only attract violince, and your flirting dangerously with some of the most violent people in History. They also out number the US population 4-1.
I suggest you try and find some reading or prehaps a kids story video on cultures out side of your own, we live in a very diverse world, American only makes up a very small part of it, and unless everybody can learn to tolerate each other then DVS's crack about building a fall out shelter could have more meaning than it was intended to carry.

We are all entitled to our opinions. You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that I dont know abuot the rest of the world. Sure there are things that I do not know. However, I've been a histroy buff since I was in college all those years ago. No shit, there are lots of different cultures out there. My finace happens to be Chinese although she was raised in Korea unil she moved to the states fifteen years ago (we are both in our thirties). My grandparents are from finland on my moms side and my fathers side is American Indian. Don't presume to lecture me on "different cultures" With that said, I am a big believe in live and let live, but fuck with me and you will pay. Kill my relatives and prepare to be treated in kind.

To many people sit around the world condeming everything, stand for nothing and cower in fear of one thing or another. I stand up for my family, friends and country. Are we perfect, hardly, but we also are not cattle to be slaughtered without acting because it might "upset" someone whos been brainwashed in wanting us dead in the first place.

[Moppie]

Originally posted by YogsVR4

With that said, I am a big believe in live and let live, but fuck with me and you will pay. Kill my relatives and prepare to be treated in kind.

And herein lies the problem I have with what you've said about attacking Afganistan. Its not the Afgan people that want to hurt you, and its not the Islamic faith that wants to hurt you.
Its a VERY small minority of the population that harbors a mis guided hatred for the Western world, and see's America as the strongest symbol of western power. They dont just hate you, they also hate me and my family as well. And if the shit hits the fan, I stand a much greater chance of being activly invovled than you do. (unless your a frount line combat soilder in the US military.)

Hate the Taliban, and hate all forms of terrorism, but dont hate the Afgan people, they are as innocent a victim as you are.
If you cant see that then you are being ignorant.

[gang$tarr]

Originally posted by Moppie


And herein lies the problem I have with what you've said about attacking Afganistan. Its not the Afgan people that want to hurt you, and its not the Islamic faith that wants to hurt you.

uhh, notice how we're only attacking taliban locations? like military installations and air strips... we're not attacking afgans

and what you said about only the taliban and a small minority hating the U.S. , that is somewhat ignorant.... notice all the celebrating palestinians and other people all over the middle east celebrating that innocent americans have died.... and it's not only people in the middle east, there are people that live in the U.S. and in Canada that are saying fuck USA
and that just pisses me off more than anything, if they hate the U.S. why did they move here, why don't they take their asses back to their poor country and live in cave

[Moppie]

Originally posted by gang$tarr
[b]

uhh, notice how we're only attacking taliban locations? like military installations and air strips... we're not attacking afgans

Yes, But try and tell that to the Civilians who are being killed by the missiles that miss, and the Afgan people who only see American planes dropping bombs on thier country.
Imagine if you lived in a Town almost totaly inhabbited by KKK members, and you were one of only a few non members. The FBI comes in shooting trying to get the KKK members and accidently, shoots up your car. Would you pissed off at the FBI? or would you just sit back and say, "Oh thats alright, they didnt mean to". Now imagine if it was a family member who got shot?

notice all the celebrating palestinians and other people all over the middle east celebrating that innocent americans have died.... and it's not only people in the middle east, there are people that live in the U.S. and in Canada that are saying fuck USA
[b]

Damn, you really need to try and listen to the news as well as watching it, and DONT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU SEE ON TV!!!!!!!!!!! Your as much a victim of brainwashing as the terrorists, and the MINORITY of people who think Osama is right.
In pakistan there have been a lot of protests but 17,000 people out of a country of over 125million does not constitute a majority.
The same is true all over the world.
There will always be groups of people who will protest any decision, no mater much surport it may gather, but they are merely a Vocal minority. The silent majority, now matter what there numbers, does not attract News coverage, because it makes for poor ratings.

And just becuse someone Hates you is no reason to attack and kill them. Its only when they threaten you life that you have a right to defend yourself. But remember Hating them back merely gives them more of a reason to hate you enough to attack you.

If there is ever going to be a chance for peace on this pathetic little planet, then we must learn to tolorate people who have different beliefs to us.

[DVSNCYNIKL]

The point that is being made is being missed, especially by you GS.

What is being debated is not that the retaliation not be taken. I'm affected by this thing more than you can imagine. Hell, I live near the damn buildings so speaking as someone who's actually in the vicinity, I want some retribution. But I'm not going to wipe out a whole country for an ignorant minority.

You see, The Taliban has brainwashed a bunch of folks out there. Yeah, I saw those Palestinians celebrating in the streets when the incident ocurred. I was angered beyond anything comprehensible. But my anger and vengeance is directed to those that misguided these people into believing that we are a cruel and unpractical world. In an example that Moppie used, understand that these people have American warplanes dropping bombs, American missles hitting targets, troops armed to the teeth with American weapons. Let's say for all intents and purposes to this discussion, you're one of them. Now remember one very important fact that you are not getting. You're not allowed to express your own thoughts or ideals. With that said, now you see these things happening in your country, you would hate America too. The government is telling you that they are being attacked through unprovoked circumstances. You would immediately take their word and want to fight back against America.

This is the impression that most Muslims deal with. They mainly on only deal with their Religion. Their religion dictates what actions they take. We in the free and civilized world are able to think for ourselves and therefore, have the luxury to say if we don't like something, fuck it.

Yogs point is not a mute one in that, if he's attacked, he's going to bite. I understand his anger and know that it is not aimed at the general populous. These people have been fleeing their own country for years and no one here has ever heard of this till the Sept.11 incident. Now everyone is seeing what is going on over their and wondering what they can do to help.

Hopefully, these terrorist organizations can be dismantled for good(wishful thinking) and never be brought back to existence.

[Moppie]

A nice post Doc, you summed it all up perfectly.

Just going to add a little thought that came to me while reading it.

In our free western world religion and goverment are mostly seperated. (not totally, as our laws and ideals tend to come from jeudo-christian thought) but generaly we sperate our religeous and our political beliefs.
In the Islamic world there is no seperation. Thier culture is one where thier religious beliefs and thier political system are the same thing, and so they tend to see the west the same way. (and vice-versa)

[gang$tarr]

Originally posted by Moppie

And just becuse someone Hates you is no reason to attack and kill them. Its only when they threaten you life that you have a right to defend yourself. But remember Hating them back merely gives them more of a reason to hate you enough to attack you.

If there is ever going to be a chance for peace on this pathetic little planet, then we must learn to tolorate people who have different beliefs to us.

uhh they don't just hate us, they did attack us

and we do tolerate people with different beliefs, i think north america is the most multicultural continent in the world, they don't tolerate OUR beliefs
i know lots of muslim people, i don't discriminate against them

and both of you guys don't understand what i'm saying.... I never said bomb their whole country (in this thread )
and it's not just a tiny minority that hates america, i bet well over 1/2 of the population of middle eastern countries hate america. Even people from middle-eastern origin in north america hate the U.S.
did you see that gathering of anti-america people in pakistan? there were a TON of people there probably most people in the city were there

and i don't care that they hate the U.S. i'm not going to attack them, i just want to attack the taliban and get bin laden, cause they carried out action. I don't care about somebodies opinion of hating america, but if they attacked america then i will retaliate
i pretty much feel the same as yogs

[Moppie]

Originally posted by gang$tarr

did you see that gathering of anti-america people in pakistan? there were a TON of people there probably most people in the city were there

GO reread my post, and then read the docs post.

According to both the BBC and ABC there only about 15-17,000 people gathering in Pakistan to protest their cooperating with the US.
In a country with a population of over 125million people (half the US population) thats a pretty small minority. I could find a much larger group in the US who think that teaching evolution in school is a bad thing. They are a small number of fanatics, amonst a majority of moderates. Under Islamic law Osama would be tried for Murder, and prombtly executed. In fact many (non-taliban) Islamic leaders have offered to do it, but the US has turned them down.

North America is not the most multicultural continent, in fact its up there with being pretty moncultural if get down and examine it. Europe would be the most multicultural continent, followed by the asian sub-continent.

[gang$tarr]

Originally posted by Moppie

In a country with a population of over 125million people (half the US population) thats a pretty small minority.

North America is not the most multicultural continent, in fact its up there with being pretty moncultural if get down and examine it. Europe would be the most multicultural continent, followed by the asian sub-continent.

aright first, in a poor country how do you expect everybody to get to the anti-american thing? It was just people out of that city.... and don't tell me that every person in the middle-east or pakistan that hates america was there.... cause i'm sure that protest was a tiny minority of the U.S. haters

Canada is known as the most multicultural country in the world
and hell no all of europe is not even close to multi cultural... i've been to lots of places in europe.. when i went to Germany i probably saw like 5 black people there during the WHOLE trip! Each country has it's own group of people, there are like no multi-cultural countries in europe... the most multicultural is probably the U.K.
while here i see hundreds of black people, muslims, asians and every possible culture, EVERY single day

[DVSNCYNIKL]

Originally posted by gang$tarr


Canada is known as the most multicultural country in the world
and hell no all of europe is not even close to multi cultural... i've been to lots of places in europe.. when i went to Germany i probably saw like 5 black people there during the WHOLE trip! Each country has it's own group of people, there are like no multi-cultural countries in europe... the most multicultural is probably the U.K.
while here i see hundreds of black people, muslims, asians and every possible culture, EVERY single day

Gee, that means you saw every single person for any given country!

[YogsVR4]

The US is hardly a monocultureal society. Here is the population breakdown. Remember, white is lumped together although it ranges from Irish, Sweeds, English, German, Russian and a host of others under "white". Places in Europe, when white is mentioned, it is mostly that countries white population. So the "white" percentage here is misleading to the number of cultures it comes from. The same goes for the "black" population. They are from many differing cultures in Africa.

White ..................................... 211,460,626 75.1
Black or African American ................... 34,658,190 12.3
American Indian and Alaska Native ..... ... 2,475,956 0.9
Asian .................................... 10,242,998 3.6
Asian Indian ............................ 1,678,765 0.6
Chinese ................................ 2,432,585 0.9
Filipino ................................. 1,850,314 0.7
Japanese ............................... 796,700 0.3
Korean ................................. 1,076,872 0.4
Vietnamese ............................. 1,122,528 0.4
Other Asian ........................... 1,285,234 0.5
Native Hawaiian......................... 140,652 +
Chamorro .................. 58,240 +
Samoan................................ 91,029 +
Other Pacific Islander .................. 108,914 = 0.1
other race ........................... 15,359,073 5.5
Mexican ................................... 20,640,711 7.3
PuertoRican ............................... 3,406,178 1.2
Cuban .................................... 1,241,685 0.4
Other Hispanic or Latino .................... 10,017,244 3.6

To say this is monocultural is not to understand the US at all. Canadas population would adjust these numbers slightly but considering the population differences in whole numbers, its adjustments would be small. US - 281,421,906 Canada 30,750,087

Mexico at 101,879,171 would impact the number significantly. There are a large number of differring ethnicities and cultures that are part of Mexico. They are hardly monocultural.

www.census.gov
http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/P...popula.htm#pop
http://www.encarta.msn.com/find/conc...62DF000&page=2

I dont know where you are getting your numbers from. If you want to consider a whole continent, then yeah, its probably more monocultural, but they sure dont live together under the same rules as they do in the three principle countries of North America. We've learned and continue to learn to live with and appreciate each other. Can the same be said of China and South Korea? India and Pakistan? Thialand and Japan? Indonesia with itself? Bosnia? Ireland and Britian? Russia and Chechnia? Turkey and Greece? Shall I go on? Its clear that there is a wide variety among those continents population, but they play worse together then the do in North America.

[DVSNCYNIKL]

Thank you Yogs for the FACTS. Now, GS, what do you have?

[gang$tarr]

Originally posted by DVSNCYNIKL



Gee, that means you saw every single person for any given country!

that's the stupidest reply i could have thought of....
i don't need to see every single person in a country, i went all over the damn countries, what are all the people of different cultures hiding? I've been to alot of countries in europe and each country has mainly one type of people (except for the U.K they were pretty multi-cultural, compared to the others)
So i went to Germany and during the WHOLE trip i only saw like 4 black people... but they're still multi-cultural right? It was like that in almost every country, it was mostly one group of people

Originally posted by DVSNCYNIKL
Thank you Yogs for the FACTS. Now, GS, what do you have?

i didn't mean continent... i was basically talkin about Canada, the U.S. is almost as multi-cultural... I mean like compare the U.S. or Canada to any other country, not continent

and yogs said we're not monocultural
Don't tell me you haven't heard that Canada is the most multi-cultural country in the world, that's what this country always brags about

hey DVS, based on those facts that Yogs gave.. what other country in the whole world has as big a diversity of people?