The Root of All Evil?

[Cbass]

Originally posted by boingo82


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Originally posted by Cbass
But they are contributing, they are just a middle man in the government subsidizing industry, and a rather minor one, considering the scale of US gov't subsidies.

I believe one of the fundamental things that makes us human is how we take care of our fellow man, whether they be starving, sick, or disadvantaged to the point where they cannot support themselves. What sort of people would we be if we let the unemployed starve to death on the street?
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I agree that it is constructive for people to help their neighbors, friends, and relatives in tough times, but I'd prefer to see charity administrated at a local level, rather than national. That way, for the donater, they take pride in their donation as they see it doing good. And for the donatee, since they are being helped directly at a local level, they appreciate the donation more. They also feel more obligated to help others once they're back on their feet. People have a much easier time taking charity from a faceless government than from their neighbors, and this also encourages those who are able to help themselves out of a bad situation. In addition, it would be easier to administer help in the form of helping the people obtain jobs, homes, etc. Pouring money on poor people may help the problem on the surface, but does not prevent it from happening again.

That would be admirable to see, but not everyone has friends and neighbours they can ask for help in tough times. Gov't welfare really isn't taking money out of the goverment, it's like the government subsidizing the economy by putting money back into it. People on welfare don't have enough money to waste it.

I come from Canada, and I know quite a few people on welfare. While it's true that some are deadbeats, the overwhelming majority are people in hard times. 2 million jobs have disappeared in the US in the last few years, and have not been replaced. That's the net change, 2 million full time positions. There just aren't enough jobs to support everyone, which is why it is the duty of those of us who do work to help the little guy, even if it's just by a little.

It's not pouring money on them, it's giving them a chance. A chance to find work, so that they don't starve. It's not likely they'll be getting a job if they're living on the street and eating out of dumpsters and soup kitchens.

Originally posted by boingo82

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Originally posted by Cbass
While your ideals may be that everyone takes care of themself, when you get laid off, and you run out of EI because their are not enough jobs, and your economy is in a recession, it would be nice to have a $300 check to at least keep a roof over your head, and food in your stomach, wouldn't it? These "handouts" are not there so that the poor can become middle class, they are there to keep the poor from starving and resorting to knocking over convenience stores and robbing little old ladies, which is what they would do, if they were starving to death on the street.
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The problem here is that that $300 check has to come from somewhere, and it is being indirectly stolen from the convenience store owners and the little old ladies, as it is being taken by force. The biggest problem I have with the welfare system today, is that it does not encourage people to solve their problems at the base level, which is that they don't have a job, or a good-enough paying job because of _______, or can't manage their money because they haven't learned how, etc. Instead it tries to solve the secondary problem, which does not prevent the situation.

Yes, that check has to come from taxes collected from the people, but think of it as insurance, if you're out of work, you can either have friends support you, which is a lot to ask of them, go on welfare, or you can starve. I'd rather go on welfare, considering my friends hardly have enough to support themselves.

Being on welfare is not pleasant, and you can be assured most people on it are quite motivated to find work. The problem is, it's hard to find work when there isn't enough to go around. You are pretty much guaranteed a certain percentage of people are going to have to be on welfare. It's the reality of the system. They are not capable of solving the primary problem, because they have no impact on the economy, which is what has put them in this position in the first place.

Originally posted by boingo82

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Originally posted by Cbass
It is, and you should appreciate it. You have a place to live, food to eat, a car to drive... What more could you ask for? Jewelery, a nicer car? A bigger house? You don't have to sew clothes together for 50 cents an hour, and you should count youself lucky for that.
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Don't you dare think for a second that I'm not grateful for where I am. The bulk of the time I was growing up, I did not know how poor we were. I thought my mom was a tightwad (she had to be) because there were periods when I'd go 3-4 years without new clothes. All our clothes were purchased at garage sales, handed down from neighbors or relatives, or given by relatives as xmas/bday presents. My parents drove the same car for 14 years and I didn't know why. Only recently did I find out how bad it really was and it only deepened my admiration for my parents. I aim to be like them. By spending money carefully my dad now stretches an income that's considered low enough for free school lunches, and the family lives well. They have 1997 and 2001 cars, paid with cash. They have only 7 years left on the mortgage for their house, and own another house outright (a fixer-upper). I am working towards paying off my high-interest car loan (I wanted to finance on my own credit) and have been entirely self-sufficient since the age of 18. I paid for my last car, cash, with money I'd earned working after school. My point is, I'm working hard to make it on my own, and I appreciate what I've got, BECAUSE I worked hard for it.

That wasn't my point, I'm sure you have worked your ass off to get where you are, as did your parents. My point was that even by our poverty standards, your parents and yourself had better opportunities than 95% of people in developing countries. You have the opportunity to work at a job that pays enough for you to own a car, rent a home, and buy all the luxuries you currently enjoy.

[orange nitro]

I personally think that the root of all evil is ourselves. It all depends on what we think and do.

[Cbass]

I personally think that "Evil" is a ridiculous concept... nothing is inherently evil.

Everything is relative...

[appleseed]

I believe that envy is the root of conflict. May it be envy for material goods or intangible qualities such as reputation or physical appearances, it is in my belief that envy is the motive for 'evil' actions. As stated in earlier posts, evil is relative and is subjective to any one point of view. Personal life experiences shape such perceptions.

However, envy may not be such a bad thing. Let me qualify my point. Envy allows oneself to reexamine themself in terms of goals and ambitions. These coupled with perseverence may drive one to better themselves.

I also agree that nothing is for free and that Welfare should not be a 'free lunch'. People are smart and will learn to 'work' the system in their favor. In my opinion, the concept of Welfare is fundamentally flawed. The government provides subsidies to 'underpriviledged' individuals who may not necessarily have to 'produce' anything to receive such aid. The government is effectively rewarding such actions by providing aid to those that are doing nothing more but just sit at home and recieve a check. You have to 'reward' those that are constructively bettering themselve and moving along a path towards financial independence.

Reward the desired action or response. One example of rewarding the wrong behavior would be to look at the recent stock scandals on Wall Street. The compensation that the CEOs receive are based largely in part on stock options. The premise for this is to align the CEO's interests to that of the company. As we all know, the stock market is always in a state of flux. Given that stock prices should reflect the financial health of the coropration, one must realize that the stock price is only a financial snapshot of the company in any given point in time. With this reward system set in place, the focus for the CEOs shift not on the long term health of the company, but on short term gains of the company's stock price (resulting in our affectionately coined 'Enron Syndrome'). Tying this example to Welfare, reward the action that you desire. In this case, grant aid to those proven to utilize that aid towards financial independence. The govenment is merely addressing a symptom of financial distress by providing monteary aid while mildly addressing any root cause.

[Cbass]

In my province, the government makes you jump through hoops for welfare. They need proof that you are attending their job search programs, and looking for work.

The best thing the goverment can do to help people find work is to actually set up programs that provide them with jobs.

[boingo82]

Originally posted by appleseed
I believe that envy is the root of conflict. May it be envy for material goods or intangible qualities such as reputation or physical appearances, it is in my belief that envy is the motive for 'evil' actions. As stated in earlier posts, evil is relative and is subjective to any one point of view. Personal life experiences shape such perceptions.

However, envy may not be such a bad thing. Let me qualify my point. Envy allows oneself to reexamine themself in terms of goals and ambitions. These coupled with perseverence may drive one to better themselves.

I also agree that nothing is for free and that Welfare should not be a 'free lunch'. People are smart and will learn to 'work' the system in their favor. In my opinion, the concept of Welfare is fundamentally flawed. The government provides subsidies to 'underpriviledged' individuals who may not necessarily have to 'produce' anything to receive such aid. The government is effectively rewarding such actions by providing aid to those that are doing nothing more but just sit at home and recieve a check. You have to 'reward' those that are constructively bettering themselve and moving along a path towards financial independence.

Reward the desired action or response. One example of rewarding the wrong behavior would be to look at the recent stock scandals on Wall Street. The compensation that the CEOs receive are based largely in part on stock options. The premise for this is to align the CEO's interests to that of the company. As we all know, the stock market is always in a state of flux. Given that stock prices should reflect the financial health of the coropration, one must realize that the stock price is only a financial snapshot of the company in any given point in time. With this reward system set in place, the focus for the CEOs shift not on the long term health of the company, but on short term gains of the company's stock price (resulting in our affectionately coined 'Enron Syndrome'). Tying this example to Welfare, reward the action that you desire. In this case, grant aid to those proven to utilize that aid towards financial independence. The govenment is merely addressing a symptom of financial distress by providing monteary aid while mildly addressing any root cause.

That's exactly what I've been trying to say, only you've expressed it so much more eloquently. Thank you.

[grimmy]

i agree with Cbass there realy is no purely evil thing
money isnt the root of all evil
money is the root of all stupidity

[jon@af]

Originally posted by Cbass
I personally think that "Evil" is a ridiculous concept... nothing is inherently evil.

Everything is relative...

Indeed, anything can be viewed as evil by any one person, but he/she cannot say directly so that it in fact IS evil. It all comes down to opinions.

[THE4TH]

humans are the root of all evil..
we are the ones who cause it.. and the ones who judge what evil is..