A Crime, Not a War

[taranaki]

Originally posted by Cbass


In my humble opinion, and in the opinion of almost every non American person I know, the "stories" they run on CNN are absolute propaganda!

I think it's much more likely that Americans are being fed American propaganda than it is everyone else in the world is being fed anti-American propaganda.

Agree with both statements completely.If anybody can explain to me what possible advantage there is to my local news media distorting the facts,I'd love to hear it.If anyone would care to tell me why all of the polls that are reported here are against U.S.invasion of Iraq,please explain why only the U.S.broadcasts that fill the dead spaces on our regional stations appear to claim the opposite.

And will somebody tell me why the U.S.is continuing with its campaign of lies and misinformation when senior U.S. officials are standing on a public stage in Switzerland,telling the leaders of the free world that the U.S. intends to go in alone if neccesary?


It's time to cut the crap.Bush is determined to get a foothold in the Middle East,because that's where the oil is,and the U.S. accounts for 50% of all oil traded internationally.Iraq is a secular country with few friends among its neighbours.Even the Moslem extremists don't care much for Saddam.The country has been strangled by ten years of sanctions.It would be a relatively easy invasion for Bush,if only he could sell it to the rest of the world.Here's hoping that the Great Dictator wakes up soon and finds that he's fooling nobody.The U.N. has found no significant wepons of mass destrucction,nor any madman intent on using them.



But then they haven't been looking in the U.S.,have they?

[Cbass]

I agree that propaganda is an ugly matter, and that it comes from both sides. The thing to consider, is who does the propaganda come from, and the easiest way to find that out is to see who publishes it, and whom it benefits.

I can see the obvious people who would benefit by the invasion of Iraq, but who would benefit if it did not happen? I don't see anyone except the Iraqi people, and the thousands of Americans who will die when it happens, and rest assured, it will happen.

To answer a few of your questions, anti aircraft facilities don't make up much of the USAF targets, it mostly has focused on destroying economic infrastructure such as factories, foundries, and anything else they can excuse as having potential to make weapons.

The reason the children are the ones focused on, is because they are the ones hit the hardest, and let's face it, are the most innocent. When an adult is malnourished, they become sluggish, tired, and more susceptable to disease. However, when a child is malnourished for 13 years, they do not develope fully into adults, they have little strength, and can be killed by a mild virus, like a simple cold.

As for the 4 Canadian soldiers who were killed, I will save you a lot of trouble by saying don't touch that one with a 10 foot pole. There is absolutely no justifying that, and you will only make a lot of enemies, myself included, if you start on it. We sent our best soldiers to Afghanistan to fight for you, when you had no proof they should even be there. 4 of our people were killed, and it was entirely the fault of the crew flying the aircraft.

[Cbass]

Very well put Taranaki. Maybe we'll actually get through to one or two people, but I doubt. It's very odd, because I've been raised on the same "apple pie and cowboys and indian" media they have, but I have a completely different outlook on their foreign policy.

[Darth Cypher]

Nowhere did I try to justify that incident. Nor did I say that the pilots don't share any of the blame. The point I was trying to make is that there are a chain of events that need to happen for an accident to occur (this is fact because it was what the Air Force taught me in the aircraft maintenance field). Break anything in the chain and the accident is averted. This can be applied to any fuck up out there.

I was only pointing out that there are other factors in the incident. The Canadians violated protocol that was placed to help prevent things such as that. And yes, the pilots did not need to descend in altitude to investigate the ground fire and put themselves in danger. Also, these "go pills" that pilots are forced to take on long sorties is also a factor. There was also the fact that those in the command center or whatever had no idea that there was any training exercises going on down there by anyone. These are all the little factiods that I have heard on it so far. I presented them all to show that I am not biased towards anyone. There are mistakes made by the US, the Canadians, and both of our commands for lack of communication.

Not to flame or anything but why is it that someone can say it's all the US's fault but when there are other factors found nobody wants to touch it with a 10 ft. pole? Why is it ok to bash the US all of a sudden? Granted we are not perfect but then again EVERYONE's shit stinks. I have made my point and that is all I'm going to say. Once again, I am not trying to justify it in any way.

Now about the starving PEOPLE in Iraq. That is not due to our sanctions. I watched an educational show in the UK (not US mind you) that told of how saddam's budget is split with billions going to his military (wether it is military or these alleged WMD we are looking for) while only millions go to his people. And we all know how lavish the palaces are and stuff. The UN inspectors see it for themselves. Now you can't tell me that our sanctions which let food through are hurting the Iraqi people when saddam is the one that won't lift much of a finger to help them out. Then agian, this is the same person who said before the Gulf War that our society is "one that cannot accept 100,000 dead in one battle". Kind of tells you where his priorities lie.

Also, how do you know that we had no proof to do into Afganistan? I mean they knew who the pilots were. I don't think the connections would be that difficult to make. Plus there are some things that should not be made known to the public as it would give out our sources and place lives in danger. Sucks, but that is the game of spying and whatnot. Some reason people cannot accept that and immediately they cry conspiracy. Besides, when they attacked the WTC they attacked everyone, hence the name WORLD Trade Center. It wasn't just Americans in there.

[Cbass]

When I said don't touch that one with a 10 foot pole, that wasn't because I don't want to talk about it, I was suggesting that as a favour to you.

That is a subject that we Canadians are VERY touchy on. Now you can get the party line from the US gov't, all the things they say to make it look better, but to those of use who get CBC(Canadian channel), it is very different.

We sent our brothers, sons, fathers, to fight and die for the US, and 4 of them were killed by friendly fire in an unthinkable blunder, and then the American media attempts to justify it by saying we didn't have markers in place.

DON'T TALK TO CANADIANS ABOUT THIS. I am more understanding than most, but I know a lot of guys who would floor you if they heard what you said, because it's exactly what they hear on CNN, and it makes them furious.

As for the starving people in Iraq, Iraq doesn't have very much in the way of farmland to provide food for it's people. Neither does Japan, they rely on importing food from other countries. When embargos are enforced and their infrastructure bombed on a weekly basis, they don't get the food they need. They can spend as much as they like on their military, or as much as they like on their people, it doesn't make a difference. As long as there is not enough food to eat in Iraq, people starve.

[Darth Cypher]

Ok, our gov't is not trying to justify it either. When this court case is finished the pilots will recieve thier sentence. They still deserve a trial like everyone else. And of course the Canadian channels have a different outlook on it. It would be the other way around if the roles were reversed. It's just normal. After all, we were talking about two sides of propoganda (which is my only point for bringing this up anyhow, not to open up any wounds). But anyhow.....

I see what you are saying about starving people in Iraq. But then why do people solely blame the US? This is what my pet peeve is about all this. Why is it only our fault? We offer food and humanitarian aid to them. And if it is for oil then why would we invade then if we get oil from Iraq already? I believe getting resources is a big factor but it isn't the only one. Everyone has an agenda obviously but come on, don't you think some of this goes a little too far?

I have heard a year ago about some oil company(s) who are already building oil pipelines in Afganistan. Ironically I haven't heard much more on it. Also, considering the only area we really control is around the Kandahar area how is it that the country is suddenly secure enough to build oil lines? Especially when our forces are still fighting al-quada/taliban over there.

People like to think we are being Imperialistic when it's ok for other countries to do it. And these other countries literally hold lands not thier own while we do our thing, help rebuild and then leave.....well usually. We still after all these years only have 50 States and 2 territorries.

I also find it very funny that we are hated, yet people won't hesitate to ask for our help. I have heard (don't have any sources yet, hence why I said HEARD) that Somalia is asking for our help again.

[Cbass]

Best to avoid the subject all together, it's a very sensitive issue for many Canadians.

The point is, by invading Iraq, the US gains control of the oil, and can produce it at cost, as opposed to having to buy it all through OPEC, at their rates, which are higher than what America would like to pay. The sort of profit there would be if they didn't have cover OPECs share would be enormous, and it would be a massive shot in the arm for the US economy. In truth, the US economy really needs that shot in the arm.

The war in Afghanistan was planned months before the Sept 11 attacks, because they wanted the oil they thought was there. It turns out there is a lot less oil there than they thought, which is why they have moved Iraq up on the "to be invaded" agenda.

http://www.rense.com/general15/afgha...warplanned.htm

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/no...afgh-n20.shtml

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...sheikhgate.htm

You are right to think that a ground war in Iraq will be unpleasant, as far as wars go(there is no pleasant war). In the Gulf War, it was a matter of forcing Iraq out of Kuwait, and bloodying their nose.

In the coming war, the US will be overthrowing the government of Iraq, although "regime change" sounds so much nicer, doesn't it. This means they have to capture or kill all troops loyal to Saddam Hussein, and in case you don't know, many Iraqis are fanatically loyal to him. Not all of course, but a great many Iraqis see him as their saviour, the fearless leader who stands up to the greatest evil, America.

If you want to know why the US is hated by many people, it comes down not to how things are done in America, it comes down to what the US does outside their borders. In the last 50 years, Americas foreign policy can be summed in one word. Evil. That is how many educated people see it, even in America.

[Monkey-Magic-S15-R]

my economics teacher a professor of economics told me that if oil prices where to rise (like sadam hussain has been trying to do by telling the Oil cartel to do) it would destroy the economy since the US is so dependant on oil. The same goes for the UK even tho we have a 80% tax on fuel it has been proven that they won't lift it in a time of crisis like when oil prices put the pump gas up to 5 pounds a liter .......... did the government do anything NO BECAUSE THEY ARE ASSHOLES

[Cbass]

Yes, and that is why they wish to invade. America and Britain can't take the depression that would cause, and it would destroy them as the powers that they are today. There is much speculation that America is on the verge of economic collapse, resulting in a depression that would make that of the '30s look like a slowdown in the market. Of course, that's just speculation.

[Monkey-Magic-S15-R]

Originally posted by Cbass
Yes, and that is why they wish to invade. America and Britain can't take the depression that would cause, and it would destroy them as the powers that they are today. There is much speculation that America is on the verge of economic collapse, resulting in a depression that would make that of the '30s look like a slowdown in the market. Of course, that's just speculation.

no its not

the UK 100 top companys share index has dropped by 136 points indicated yes we are fucked

Do you realise how shitty and unstable the US economy has been since MS was split and September 11th screwed up the airlines and every single company that has anything to do with air travel in the united states

not to mention that the government had to bail some out

But you do fail to realise the true problem

Every single country that ships products to America would be affected by any economic change that should come about

Today we do not live in single economies we live in a WORLD ECONOMY should one of us fall everyone else will go down with us and it would take years to recover

[Cbass]

Yes, everyone would be affected, but those in Europe would be much less affected, as you economy which does not depend on America very strongly.

OTOH, Canada does more that 80% of our business with the US, thanks to a succession of politicians who have traded our independence for a period of great prosperity.

I plan to get off this continent, as the future is unpleasant as I see it

[Darth Cypher]

I'll be honest, I only skimmed the links but from what I see they are more credible than what other people have provided. It's a lot of reading and I will have to do it some other time (have to get some sleep for work after all). I have always known there was some shady business about oil so I will hopefully remember to read them.

Still, one thing that struck me as odd was that one link where some other countries "knew" that we were threatening war with Afganistan prior to Sept. 11. So then why didn't anyone say anything about it? I mean, we threaten anyone and everyone is all over it. We know that the UN would oppose us invading places like they are with Iraq. So why didn't anyone make a big deal with this one?

[Cbass]

This was not an official govt statement, so it's not proven. For one, the BBC is not much better than CNN when it comes to propaganda, they're just more subltle, and seem to have more respect for their viewers.

Since Britain is in on the invasion, this wasn't published on the BBC any more than it was on CNN, or the New York Times. However, Stefanel or Menu may have read about this, or perhaps seen it on the evening news.

[Monkey-Magic-S15-R]

Originally posted by Cbass
Yes, everyone would be affected, but those in Europe would be much less affected, as you economy which does not depend on America very strongly.

OTOH, Canada does more that 80% of our business with the US, thanks to a succession of politicians who have traded our independence for a period of great prosperity.

I plan to get off this continent, as the future is unpleasant as I see it

you are sadly mistaken when the American economy suffering during september 11th European economies suffered a great deal

true Canada probably suffered worse but Europe still was affected a great deal not just a little bit like you so naively put it

[Cbass]

I didn't say it didn't affect the European economies, it did. It just did not affect them nearly as much as it did in Canada. This was offset by a boom in the Canadian economy at the time, so it didn't really look that bad, but it was.