Muslim clerics removed from flight

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

Originally Posted twice by fredjacksonsan
I'm curious if you read the signed statements of the witnesses?

Im sorry, what signed statements? I've heard this on the news live. They were interviewing the witnessess and it seems like the younger ppl are more open minded than them old folks. Theres really nothing else I can tell you.

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

what story was told by your teacher?

The opposite of what the media tells you

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by mellowboy

Im sorry, what signed statements? I've heard this on the news live. They were interviewing the witnessess and it seems like the younger ppl are more open minded than them old folks. Theres really nothing else I can tell you.


The opposite of what the media tells you

Read the damn thread and pursue the links therein.


Thank you for another non-answer, deflecting rather than illuminating. Your smilie is cute, but as always you are like a lawyer that doesn't want to tell the actual story, and won't give a straight answer or pretends to be ignorant of the facts. I'm done 'debating' with you, if that's what you can call it.

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

I just find it funny that people are getting all bent out of shape over the fact that this whole thing is developing the way it has -- like they're SURPRISED or something? What makes this any different from the numerous occurances we've already seen? Regardless of whatever the media or these Imams or anyone else wants to babble on about, the situation remains the same: these guys are members of what is currently a highly profiled group, they got on a plane, they behaved oddly, and the situation was resolved. I'm as tired of hearing about all the phantom "terrorist" crap as the next person (between stupid TV shows attempting to capitalize on the craze, idiot talking heads and media outlets trying to analyze it, and ignorant scumbags trying to utilize it to their own ends it's all become rather sickening) but in the end these men were escorted off, questioned, and let go. there were no hangings, no false imprisonments, no trumped up charges -- just a group of security people behaving according to protocol. Undoubtedly, the current "protocol" is all kinds of F'd up, but the only ending cost to those affected was basically inconvenience. As long as vigilance is continual and level heads ultimately prevail, there's always room for some inconvenience.

If only all the entities involved in current global conflicts behaved this way, there would be a lot less illegal detainment, violent discrimination, blown-up civilians, and barbaric executions.

For real. Stick your hand in a beehive and then be surprised when you get stung. Then complain about the injustice of it all.

Bottom line: you act like an ass and do things that you KNOW will get you questioned or arrested, then you don't have the right to complain about it.

[mellowboy]

Since when does my views/answers become such an importance to you? Are you a curious person or you just want me to answer so you have an excuse to ramble on? Sorry if I cause any frusteration.

[03cavPA]

Mellowboy, if you care (personally, I don't give a shit whether you do or not), this link contains other links to download the police report, handwritten notes from passengers, and a letter from one of the passengers about the incident.

http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/12/the_...amas_media.php

Tell your teacher he's lucky the passengers didn't just take matters into their own hands and beat his ass.

Fred, don't sweat this guy; you can badger him for pages at a time, and he won't give you a straight answer when it doesn't turn out the way he wants it to. I'm surprised it took him this long to weigh in here.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

Mellowboy, if you care (personally, I don't give a shit whether you do or not), this link contains other links to download the police report, handwritten notes from passengers, and a letter from one of the passengers about the incident.

http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/12/the_...amas_media.php

You think I care what those "witnesses" say or think? They're just paranoid. Doesn't mean they're right. They dont even understand Islam or how we pray. So how can you believe someone who doesn't understand anything about the religion? Oh just so you know, there was other witness according AZ channel 3 news that are non-muslims that took the Scholars side.

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

Tell your teacher he's lucky the passengers didn't just take matters into their own hands and beat his ass.

That comment wasn't neccessary nor should it be tolerated!!! He didn't do anything wrong. If they or YOU wanted his beat because of his belief then come by and beat my ass well or every other Muslim or any who thinks differently as you. That comment you made was utterly stupid an unnecessary.

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

Fred, don't sweat this guy; you can badger him for pages at a time, and he won't give you a straight answer when it doesn't turn out the way he wants it to. I'm surprised it took him this long to weigh in here.

LOL! Tell me this, who is he or anyone of that matter that I should explain every details to? I just hate it when someone demands answers!

[03cavPA]

Cry me a river. This has nothing to do with religion, but it always goes to that, so someone can cry how badly they were discriminated against and garner some sympathy.

No, he doesn't deserve to be beaten for his beliefs. I never said he needed to be beaten at all. I said he was lucky somebody did not decide to beat his ass. Try reading with a little more precision.

I don't see anything wrong with Fred asking a question that can be answered without all the theatrics. I'm not surprised, though. You have a good history of ducking and dodging when you chime in on a thread and then someone asks you a simple, straightfoward question.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

.

I don't see anything wrong with Fred asking a question that can be answered without all the theatrics. I'm not surprised, though. You have a good history of ducking and dodging when you chime in on a thread and then someone asks you a simple, straightfoward question.

Oh yeh you and I had a history. Maybe I do have to re-read once or twice since im at my job and cannot stay on for long. So sue me? He wants details and I dont have time to get into details. Quit acting like a moron and just move on. Like I said, my views to you or anyone shouldn't matter. So me answering his demanding questions is pointless. I just said my part , but I guess thats not enough.

If he wants to know what my teacher said here it goes...

During friday prayers when hes up on the podium...

Sheikh- Does anyone smell something?

Audience - <lookin at each other in confusion>

Sheikh- I smell something! And thats a LAWSUIT

Audience - ALLAH AKBAR <repeatedly chanting>


Ya happy?

[03cavPA]

Mellowboy, I'll hand it to you, you never disappoint.

I'll stop badgering for just a bit, but I'll remind you that any time any of us, myself included, comes into a thread to contribute their $.02, they become fair game for anything anyone wants to throw at them. If you don't want buckets of sand dumped on you, then you should probably stay out of the sandbox. That's the way these communities work. If anybody starts to take this shit too seriously, it's time to stand up, take a break from the keyboard, and get some fresh air. Me included.

OK, let's say you untwist your shorts for a bit and consider some possibilities:

You came in here to tell us what your teacher had to say about the whole affair. You innocently thought we'd just all stop what we were doing and accept the story as gospel. Well, you said our sources are all full of shit, and yours is the real deal. Maybe they are. In that same vein, your source could be just as full of shit; it certainly seems that he sees a good way to make a quick buck off this one. Too quick, if you ask me. (I smell something, alright, but it's not a lawsuit.) How much money do you think he stands to make? Is he going to share it with the flock?

We think that a full blown police report and signed witness statements might have some validity, but we don't know for sure. They might all be lying. Your teacher could also be lying through his turban, or whatever it is he wears. Either is a possiblity. You like your source, we like ours. Ok, fair enough. Don't expect us to give your source any more crediblity than you give ours. I say your teacher is lying. There. Tit for tat, touch you, touch me. Are YOU happy now?

So, here's a bit of thought: you say those people were all "paranoid" (please don't make me quote your ass, OK?). Yeah, they probably were. they saw some dudes who looked and acted just like the gang who flew some planes full of people into some buildings full of people. Blew up 3000 that day, more or less. That might not be a big number to people who are used to seeing innocent people get blown up by bombers everyday, but it's a big deal to us, and it makes some folks nervous.

Now you guys all want to whine about being profiled and treated like you're criminals. "It's not right, it's not fair, I want a pile of cash now, etc." It's not right, but it's reality. Reality bites.

You know who should be the most pissed off about 9/11? You and your brethren. Those guys did what they did in the name of your god and doomed all of you to closer scrutiny and profiling everywhere you go in this country. Sucks to be you, but that's cold reality. If I were you and your brethren, I'd be out hunting all the extremists down for what they are doing to your religion.

[mellowboy]

You gotta understand that I dont get mad at your comments. Sure they can be annoying but I dont lose sleep over it. I was being sarcastic about my last post. In case you haven't noticed. My teacher's side of the story didn't match what the media said about him and the other Scholars. All he said that he never talked politics and theres no reason for him to talk about Saddam Hussein. I believe him because my father tried talkin about politics with him and he just put his hands over his ears and told him dont talk about politics or conspiracy theories. Just concentrate on helping others and learn more about our religion. Now lets just say IF one of them did spoke out against the war in Iraq, so what? Theres many ppl on this forum who are against the war as well as other Americans around the country. Have any of you remember what happened to that Indian Seik gentleman who got shot and killed just because he was wearing a turban? What led that person to kill that Seik? Ignorance and paranoia. Paranoia and ignorance can lead a person to do an unthinkable action.

[03cavPA]

heh. That's a nice bike ya got there. It pedals backwards better than it does forward.

[mellowboy]

Very smart.

[Ian Szgatti]

Profiling isnt even new... if I went for a job interview in a wife beater stained with speggehtti sauce, my colorado avalanch track pants and homer simpson slippers... i'd be judged... and not in my favor.
The profiling thing is a tool.

[BNaylor]

Here is an interesting read considering the author is Muslim. Makes sense to me. Social/cultural prudence and tolerance is a two way street especially in post 9/11. There appears to be insensitivity and stupidity with both sides in this case.

Ahmed Tharwat: Imams at airport should have known better
They failed to see how paranoid Americans would view them in the post-9/11 world.
November 28, 2006
StarTribune.com
Ahmed Tharwat
The recent removal and questioning of six Muslim clerics from a Twin Cities flight became headline news with several clashing views.

From a civil liberties point of view, those imams’ freedom of worship was taken away and they were singled out and publicly humiliated because of their religious customs, the way they looked or the use of their native language.

From the view of Americans widely known for their ethnocentric and Islam-phobic tendencies, the imams “seemed angry,” as a passenger explained in a police statement. The patriotic passenger continued, “The men then chanted ‘Allah, Allah, Allah.’ And, “They spoke Arabic again.”

We have been fighting in Muslim countries for years. We should know by now that Muslim prayer is always in Arabic, regardless of your terrorist tendency, and prayers require invoking the phrase “Allahu Akbar” (God is the Greatest) numerous times. Colloquial Arabic is likewise full of expressions like “Inshallah” (God willing) and “mashallah” (what God wishes), which are not normally preambles for suicidal acts.

It does not really matter to me if overzealous passengers or paranoid US Airways pilots demonstrated their cultural incompetence on board. What truly bothers me about this incident is that it appears to be not a clash of civilizations or cultures, but a clash of stupidity. From the common-sense view, the way those imams behaved and looked at the airport is part of the clash.

Any outraged Muslims should be aware that in a post-9/11 Islamic-phobic country, Muslims with huge untrimmed beards should just not pray in the boarding area at an airport. Period.

As Muslims, we should be the ones who are extremely cautious about traveling by air with paranoid Americans. As for me, I don’t really care what the First Amendment says or entitles you to. I do not care if the time of prayer was called or not. According to my only imam (my dad), a Muslim when traveling can always pray all five daily prayers in the comfort of home upon arrival. The prophet followed this guideline, even though he was among his own devoted followers, not a suspicious and paranoid airport crowd.

You just cannot display that degree of poor judgment as a Muslim, let alone as an imam, whom other Muslims expect to exhibit social prudence. This is an era in which we can assume that Muslims are profiled, some have their phones monitored, and others may be followed or watched when they are praying at mosques, all in the interest of the safety of the flying public. What are you thinking when you pray at the airport itself?

What happened at the airport to those six imams is not a lack of legal rights and a First Amendment issue. This is a lack of common sense and poor judgment issue. Those imams are supposedly teaching us through sermons at every Friday prayer how to behave as a Muslim living in a hostile time.

Those six imams’ biggest blunder was not just praying together at the airport but being there together. Bushra Khan, spokeswoman for CAIR’s Arizona chapter, said, “All these men did was pray … and that scares some people.” Please count me in; I would be too, but not because this type of behavior indicates a terrorist tendency, but rather a stupidity tendency. In this post-9/11 era, when I travel, I am always clean-shaven; I leave my prayer rug and my nail clippers at home along with my feta cheese and cans of fava beans. I don’t even pray at a mosque, let alone at the airport. My biggest concern at the airport is not connecting with God Almighty but connecting with my flight. I stay quietly in the waiting area, watching CNN and Fox network news blasting “fair and balanced” coverage of Muslims around the world. I don’t ask for special halal meals on the flight, but just quietly fish out any offending pork that may have found its way into my entree. And when they ask me to take off my shoes, I understand it is time for a security check and not time for prayer.

Ahmed Tharwat is host of the Arab-American show “Belahdan,” which airs Sundays at 10:30 p.m. on Twin Cities Public Television (Ch. 17).

[03cavPA]

I agree. Friends of mine who travel regularly say they have modified their usual practices when they fly, in order to make the security process smoother. They limit carry-on items, they make sure they don't have any extra metal items on them, and they wear shoes that are easy to slip off and on. They try to stay relaxed and they don't give anybody a hard time at the gate.

Granted, probably the worst thing that would happen is some inconvenience, as teng pointed out, but who needs the hassle? I see it as just good common sense. Mr. Tharwat makes some very good points in that article. It could apply to Americans overseas as well. Perhaps more people should read it.

I personally don't think the imams in this case were that stupid. IIRC (I could be mistaken) some of them are Americans and they were flying home from a convention on Muslim-American relations. Profiling is a hot issue, and it has been suggested that they did this to push the envelope and provide an opportunity for a lawsuit. I do not know if that is the case, but it's always on the table for consideration.