Warning to me about twin turbos

[Wischmaster]

I would have said all that, but I had only a minute or two in the morning to write something.

[Zeiss]

Engine Response
The Turbocharger does not reach its maximum efficiency range until high speed and airflows are achieved later in the vehicle acceleration event. The latest Turbochargers with variable geometry housings and ceramic turbines still take four times as long as a positive displacement Supercharger to produce maximum boost.

The Supercharger is continuously driven at full boost speed for the given engine speed. This offers almost immediate boost response which takes approximately 0.4 secs to produce 50 KPA boost.

Efficiency
Turbocharger airflow delivery characteristics do not match the requirements of the internal combustion engine because of the volumetric efficiency versus speed difference. Turbochargers only display efficiency over a limited flow range. Turbo systems must be compromised to provide some low speed boost while matching high speed flow requirements. This usually requires wastegating which reduces maximum power.

The Supercharger exhibits an airflow delivery characteristics very close to the engine requirement. Thus, boost remains almost constant over the total speed range without wastegating or other compromising control systems.

Noise and Durability
With Turbos driven by exhaust gases turbine noise is nearly eliminated. Durability cycles are affected by the extreme temperatures that the turbine and housings are subjected to, leading to fatigue and inevitable failure.

Supercharger noise along with durability concerns have been the expressed reservations associated with automotive use. With improved designs and advanced materials noise levels have been reduced considerably with durability cycles proven well in excess that of Turbochargers.

Lubrication
Turbochargers are subjected to extreme temperatures and in "shut down" situation the oil remaining in the turbine bearing sections will reach coking (burning) temperatures. The carbon build up in the engines lubricating system will accelerate the internal wear of the engine and add to the rapid deterioration of the oil.

Superchargers can be lubricated by self contained systems which without the extreme heats experienced by Turbochargers will last for periods well in excess of the engine lubricants.

Aftercooling (Intercooling)
Turbochargers again are subject to extreme temperatures and discharge temperatures need lowering through aftercoolers if high performance levels approaching that of Superchargers are to be reached.

Superchargers do not require aftercooling as outlet temperatures rarely exceed 140 degrees C.

Driveability
Unlike a direct coupled Supercharger, performance is only enhanced in proportion to turbine speed. Therefore performance at low speed is limited and a distinct pause is encountered under acceleration known commonly as Turbo lag.

Performance is obtained without sacrificing the practical and constant rate in which this torque is delivered. Towing and Off Road-4-Wheel Driving can benefit greatly from the increased torque at low speeds.

Exhaust Emissions
Turbochargers can be tailored to meet emission levels at normal operating temperatures but suffer on cold starts. Contrary to the heat generated by a Turbo the exit gases are still low and on cold starts results in a longer catalytic light up time. This results in unacceptable levels of exhaust emissions at engine start up and legislation is slowly reducing the light up period available which will create problems for Turbochargers.

With legislation increasing pressure on automobile manufacturers to generate clean running engines Superchargers can easily be tailored to suit engine manufacturers emission designs.

Vehicle Modifications
A Turbo becomes an integral part of the exhaust system, therefore requiring major modification to the standard exhaust. This also is the single limiting factor dictating its position in relation to the inlet manifold. Additional pipe-work can be required to reach air cleaners and inlet manifolds when mounted on the opposite side of the engine. If an aftercooler is incorporated the potential piping requirements can become impractical. Turbochargers fitted to some vehicles needs to be insultated with a heat-shield lagging to protect under-bonnet-components from the extreme temperature generated. Brake master cylinders have been known to melt in a Turbocharged vehicle which raises other problems. Internal modifications are required in some cases such as compression modifications to accommodate the hot delivery air of the Turbocharger. Early opening of the exhaust valve will allow a high blow down pressure giving smaller engines more drive pressure from its exhaust but does sacrifice engine efficiency at cruise due to loss of full gas expansion.

A Supercharger need not change the physical configuration of a motor vehicle. A Supercharger is fitted where convenient by brackets and drive belt. Standard air cleaner and exhaust stay intact. No internal modifications to engines are required as the extra boost delivered is at a moderate temperature and which reduces the chance of detonation. No heat shielding is required for under-bonnet-components as again operating temperatures are low. No excessive plumbing required as Superchargers do not require aftercoolers and the unit can be mounted near the intake manifold requiring only a short discharge pipe.

Market Trends
Manufacturers have worked with or around the inherent problems of Turbocharging in the pursuit of performance, economy and emission controls. Now with other options available Turbocharging is becoming less important to many vehicle manufacturers.

Supercharging is becoming more widely accepted by original equipment manufacturers and different forms of Supercharging are now appearing on new vehicles.

Summary
In the past Turbocharging has been an accepted means of increasing engine performance. Even with its inherent problems it was the most cost effective method of forced induction. Now with improved manufacturing techniques and high volume production Superchargers can now not only offer better performance and packaging characteristics but can also now be price competitive.
http://www.prolexperformance.com/pro...percharger.asp

Good enough for ya?

[sLADe781]

Originally Posted by Hotshot8792

If you already have the N/A, then go ahead and supercharge it if you want. Basically, if your debating to whether or not buy a TT or buy an N/A then supercharge it, you might as well just buy the TT because it'll hold up to the power much better. Remember, the more power your making, the more of a chance it has of breaking. There shouldnt be anything wrong with S/C'ing your N/A, just make sure you take all the precautionary mods that go with it

What precautionary mods are we talking about? I'm really interested in knowing as I am highly considering going the SC route.

[Zeiss]

You need long headers for the ripp sc other then that I dont think he knows what hes talking about in regards to supercharging

[sLADe781]

You mean like the headers just recently introduced by 3sx? Then that means that there's gonna be other mods to the exhaust and sensor stuff down there that's needed too then. ;o/ So much for a quick bolt-on install.

[Stealthee]

Way to copy and paste Zeiss. You took all that info from an overly biased source. Go to an unbiased source and see what you find. Turbo chragers will always be more efficienct in creating power because of the exact reasons listed Linebckr49.

[talskinyguy]

hahahaha, you copied that strait from the RIPP site didnt you?? arent you clever.

turbochargers are more effiecent, do some real research, and learn to live with it

let me pick apart that post for ya


Engine Response
Turbos need to spool up, superchargers dont, they are belt driven off the engine. We all know this.

Efficiency
Its like they just pulled this shit out of a hat. Turbos are driven by the waisted heat energy created by the engine. While this does create more backpresure and rob you of a few HP it is far less than the HP lost by belt driving a compressor on the side of an engine.

Noise and Durability
um and Lubrication since these are the same catigory
Superchargers make that whine at idle, turbos dont. WOT do we even care? Supercahrgers only last as long as the bearings that are spinning on, bearings can go out, so can turbos. The lubrication thing is crap. Most modern turbos have water jackets that help cool the oil jackets so the oil does not get burnt in them. Also most people run a turbo timer or synthetic oil with largly reduceses the oil from buring in the turbo. Most of all, the majority of people do not go out and push their engine to extreams and then shut it off right away, they let it cool down a little.

Aftercooling (Intercooling)
Any, yes any, high boost supercharger setup uses an aftercooler. Most of the heat that comes from a turbo is not because the turbo also touches the exhaust. It is because when you compress a gas it heats up, and the more you compress it the more it heats up. You can run a turbo system with not intercooler either, you just need to keep the boost levels down. While you do not need to run an intercooler on either setup, it makes the system much more efficent. I mean seriosuly who are they kidding, rarely excedes 140*C, thats fucking hot. I dont want my intake temps to reach 140*F.

Exhaust Emissions
bull shit!

Market Trends
even more bull shit! new cars that are turbo:srt4, soltice, miata, audi whatever, and as you did earlier....the list goes on


Dont regergitate stuff you dont feel like actually researching.

[Stealthee]

Very good job. I knew about the same but never could have worded it as well as you. Looks like I posted while you were typing up your response too.

[Linebckr49]

Originally Posted by sLADe781

What precautionary mods are we talking about?

As Hotshot so appropriately mentioned: "the more power your making, the more of a chance it has of breaking."

stuff that could break are pistons, rods, valves, etc etc. if you run boost, then this puts more stress on your engine than normal aspiration. some Precautionary Mods might be a Temperature Gauge for the exhaust and possibly intake, a knock sensor, aftermarket boost gauge that is better than the stock crap one, an electronic device to regulate boost, air/fuel mixture.

Originally Posted by Zeiss

You need long headers for the ripp sc other then that I dont think he knows what hes talking about in regards to supercharging

No, you don't NEED long headers, short headers will do fine. heck you don't even need headers, but you will sacrifice a lot of power if you don't have them. OH AND ZEISS, BEFORE YOU GO ACCUSING PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN HERE MUCH LONGER THAN YOU HAVE OF NOT KNOWING WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT...YOU BETTER MAKE DAMN SURE THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Originally Posted by sLADe781

You mean like the headers just recently introduced by 3sx? Then that means that there's gonna be other mods to the exhaust and sensor stuff down there that's needed too then. ;o/ So much for a quick bolt-on install.

yes, the newly introduced 3SX headers will work great for supercharged applications, as well as simple normally aspirated engines. however they're only made for the DOHC setup...sorry SOHC guys.

I'm not sure what "other mods" you mean. IF the headers replace the catylitic converter, then there's a problem...but only when you get your car inspected...granted you live in an emissions county. Also, you might need to simply drill a hole (bung) for an oxygen sensor. other than that, i don't think there would be anything else needed---simple bolt-on application for the headers. Now supercharger/turbos would not be considered a simple bolt-on project by the mechanically disinclined or those without the confidence or experience of being a grease monkey. however, i'm sure some would say its fun and simple.

[sLADe781]

Originally Posted by Linebckr49

As Hotshot so appropriately mentioned: "the more power your making, the more of a chance it has of breaking."

stuff that could break are pistons, rods, valves, etc etc. if you run boost, then this puts more stress on your engine than normal aspiration. some Precautionary Mods might be a Temperature Gauge for the exhaust and possibly intake, a knock sensor, aftermarket boost gauge that is better than the stock crap one, an electronic device to regulate boost, air/fuel mixture.

Running boost....that's just referring to turbos right? Not including SCs? Yeah, once I get enough money to actually get one, I'll probably look into more detail....thanks for the heads up though guys.

[talskinyguy]

anything that produces presure over the atmosphere is making boost, so turbos, superchargers, whatever.

Also, if anyone needs SOHC long tube headers just go to RIPP's site, they sell them.

[Zeiss]

Please guys, first off I posted the link below where I had gotten the info from, so its quite obvious where the source came from, and im just posting that because you asked for a list....secondly, just because I dont have as many posts as someone else doesnt mean I know less...

[Stealthee]

Originally Posted by Zeiss

Please guys, first off I posted the link below where I had gotten the info from, so its quite obvious where the source came from, and im just posting that because you asked for a list....secondly, just because I dont have as many posts as someone else doesnt mean I know less...

You posted from a site trying to sell you superchargers, so its OVERLY biased just like I said. ANd you didnt know what you were talking about with the long tube header statement either. You dont NEED the long tube headers. They are an OPTION. Linebckr broke it down and told you exactly why tc are better than sc. You made the bnold statement that he didnt know what he was talking about so he had a right to get snippy with you. Then talskiny broke down and destroyed the stuff copied from that site. Are you going to tell me he doesnt know what he is talking about too? You need to do some proper research and not just paste teh first thing that supports your argument. You obviously dont know what you are talking about otherwise you wouldnt have regurgitated stuff from that site. You would have came up with your own defense of your arguments.

[youngvr4]

Originally Posted by talskinyguy

hahahaha, you copied that strait from the RIPP site didnt you?? arent you clever.

turbochargers are more effiecent, do some real research, and learn to live with it

let me pick apart that post for ya


Engine Response
Turbos need to spool up, superchargers dont, they are belt driven off the engine. We all know this.

Efficiency
Its like they just pulled this shit out of a hat. Turbos are driven by the waisted heat energy created by the engine. While this does create more backpresure and rob you of a few HP it is far less than the HP lost by belt driving a compressor on the side of an engine.

Noise and Durability
um and Lubrication since these are the same catigory
Superchargers make that whine at idle, turbos dont. WOT do we even care? Supercahrgers only last as long as the bearings that are spinning on, bearings can go out, so can turbos. The lubrication thing is crap. Most modern turbos have water jackets that help cool the oil jackets so the oil does not get burnt in them. Also most people run a turbo timer or synthetic oil with largly reduceses the oil from buring in the turbo. Most of all, the majority of people do not go out and push their engine to extreams and then shut it off right away, they let it cool down a little.

Aftercooling (Intercooling)
Any, yes any, high boost supercharger setup uses an aftercooler. Most of the heat that comes from a turbo is not because the turbo also touches the exhaust. It is because when you compress a gas it heats up, and the more you compress it the more it heats up. You can run a turbo system with not intercooler either, you just need to keep the boost levels down. While you do not need to run an intercooler on either setup, it makes the system much more efficent. I mean seriosuly who are they kidding, rarely excedes 140*C, thats fucking hot. I dont want my intake temps to reach 140*F.

Exhaust Emissions
bull shit!

Market Trends
even more bull shit! new cars that are turbo:srt4, soltice, miata, audi whatever, and as you did earlier....the list goes on


Dont regergitate stuff you dont feel like actually researching.

nice job

[Zeiss]

Oh yeah I guess I wasnt specific enough in regards to headers, and since Ripp says aftermarket headers are required maybe they dont know what they are talking about, especially when taking "proper precautions"
Im sure the turbo boys on this site arent an unbiased source Hey though, since everyone has more posts then me I dont know anything so I will stop posting. Thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard.