oil advice

[blazes9395]

Originally Posted by BlazerLT

In Michigan, he will want 5w30 for better oil flow when the temperature gets really low.

You have to understand that oil pressure is the resistance to flow and that is not something you want to do to an older engine, he requires proper flow to get to the top end for vital protection.

I live north east of toronto, it is as cold, if not colder here then where he lives. I use Mobil 10-30 on all my trucks for many many years, never had a problem. I used to use Mobil 5-30 but at about 200,000kms, I switched to 10-30 because after long drives, I didn't like where my oil pressure gauge was sitting, wasn't bad, but I liked a little more protection and switched to 10-30. The '95 is shy of 300,000, and the '93 is at 218,000. Both have thier original engines, and both run great, and hold strong oil pressures when warm, just shy of the middle mark on the guage. Also the '93 started to develop an oil leak at the cooler line fitting, the usual problem with the cooler lines. Once I switched to 10-30, the leak (to my delight)stopped and that was about 3 years ago. He has about 200,000miles on his, synthetic 10-30 would not hurt it at all.

[BlazerLT]

Originally Posted by blazes9395

I live north east of toronto, it is as cold, if not colder here then where he lives. I use Mobil 10-30 on all my trucks for many many years, never had a problem. I used to use Mobil 5-30 but at about 200,000kms, I switched to 10-30 because after long drives, I didn't like where my oil pressure gauge was sitting, wasn't bad, but I liked a little more protection and switched to 10-30. The '95 is shy of 300,000, and the '93 is at 218,000. Both have thier original engines, and both run great, and hold strong oil pressures when warm, just shy of the middle mark on the guage. Also the '93 started to develop an oil leak at the cooler line fitting, the usual problem with the cooler lines. Once I switched to 10-30, the leak (to my delight)stopped and that was about 3 years ago. He has about 200,000miles on his, synthetic 10-30 would not hurt it at all.

You do know the X in Xw30 is how the oil performs and flows at colder temperatures. It is not a weight measurement.

80% of our engine wear happens at startup and the faster you get the oil to the top end, the better.

At operating temperature, they are both 30 weights and have the same oil weight and the same pressure.

[Blazer LT]

5w30 is best

[blazes9395]

Wrong. They are not the same. The 5W is a thinner base oil than a 10W oil. Multi viscosity oils like the ones we use have polymers in the oil that prevent the oil from thinning beyond a certain weight, in this case up to a 30 weight. As the base gets lighter (the first designation, the 5W, or now even 0W), more polymers are added to make it stable when it warms up, to the 30 weight designated. The base oil is thinner to start with and when an oil gets warm, it naturally wants to thin out and flow easier and faster. Now of course a lighter weight oil is better for start-up this helps for cold start-ups, but when it warms up, its natural tendancy to thin is modified by the polymers in the oil to make it stable. The hotter the oil gets the more dependance on the polymers to keep the oil stable and as close to the 30 weight designated. So a 10W, 15W, 20W, are much more stable oils, thats why they are used in high performance, turbo, and for racing engines, as these engines work hard, produce tremendous heat and shear the oil. A 5W is fine for tight tolerance engines(such as new and close to new engines), but older engines don't have tight tolerances, and since I want a more stable oil when warm (which I mentioned in my first post about better protection), I am willing to move up a designation in oil viscosity. Flow is less hindered when cold because of the looser tolerances in the engine, and an oil that is more stable holds pressure better when warm or very hot(such as highway driving) because it is naturally more stable, less prone to breakdown and shearing, thereby giving me better protection. Thats why it is important to use good oil, and change it regularly as the polymers wear out as the oil gets older. There is a difference, they are not the same.

[wolfox]

The polymers you refer to for film strength and anti-shear properties applies truthfully to organic oils. Read up on synthetics when you get the chance. Though your argument is valid, it is not in context when referring to synthetic base oils. (And I mean REAL synthetic base oils - I.E. AMSOIL, Mobil-1 and Redline as an example)

Synthetics usually contain only a very insignificant amount of any crude oil stock and are therefor nearly 100% additive-pack, making them totally superior. Organics contain a small amount of this Add-Pack material, with tons of detergents, extenders and film modifiers that in time break down and can make the situations your described above, Blaze9395.

You will find that nearly any 100% purely synthetic oil does exactly what it is supposed to do - lubricates like a 30 weight, yet still FLOW and require pumping force similar to water! (0 weight as an example) And this property alone would allow it to be used as a replacement in nearly any dino-oil application with none of the organic drawbacks and everything to gain. Google up the "Motor Oil Bible" and give it a look... it gives EXCELLENT insight into the discussion as it stands, and will benefit us all to look at.

[BlazerLT]

guys, the X in Xw30 is NOT a weight!

The only difference between 0w30, 5w30, 10w30 is how easily they will flow at colder temperatures.

They are ALL 30 WEIGHT OILS AT 212F.

[blazes9395]

Wolfox, I totally agree with you in that synthetic oils are far superior than organic oils, but no lubricant, synthetic oil or petroleum can vary from the very nauture of fluid dynamics. No question synthetic is more stable, in that its properties are far greater than petroleum oils. To make synthetic oil a multi viscosity oil, it still must use polymers, it just uses way far less than any organic, petroleum oil uses. This is why synthetic oil can prolong drain intervals, and be ten timnes more stable, with superior oxidation properties, and its abiltiy to resist sheering. Synthetic is far superior. When we start comparing syntehetics, (which I failed to explain before), the higher bases still use less polymers, making the oil more stable than its lower base 5 or 0 weight synthetic oil. A higher weight oil will always outperform its lower base counterpart. There are trade-offs like I mentioned in my last post though.

[blazes9395]

The Motor Oil Bible looks interesting too, I am going to take a look at it.

[BlazerLT]

Yes, the Motor Oil Bible is actually a VERY good read and from my research, pretty well all of it is completely true.

[wolfox]

I read you 5x5 there, Blazes - I guess my only argument, looking on this hindsight is thus:

Where I was not so clear, and thought to pipe up about was where you said that the heavier base stocks protect better, in the light of referring to organic oil. I was thinking, "Not reeeaaaaally when compared to a quality synth - and here's why..." I have disassembled an old and broken in half Olds 307 C.I.D. engine that merely subsisted on SF grade or slightly better synthetics for 230K miles, and saw maybe 2 oil changes a year until the end of it's 18 year life. Compared to a low mileage motor (45K miles, Another Olds 307) on regular, factory specified oil changes of recommended grade/viscosity organic oil - the difference was like night and day. Granted, there are many factors that would have put the grooves I have seen lightly worn on the cam lobes - usually due to normal operation (as they were just light score marks, really)but they were completely *absent* in the high-mileage 307. No noticable cylinder wear either, but there was a ridge on the low mileage motor... etc...etc. Both were rated to run on either 5w30 or 10w30 SF/CD, both GOT that - just that one had synth sloshing through it and it made an immediate, visual difference to my relatively young eyes back then.


True, there really is no way to argue fluid dynamics, what you say is 100% correct. Trade-off's are also correct, and your basis for our mutual debate is sound. The point I was simply trying to make, and it seems that we agree there:

Synthetics do the job better. Higher numbered stock will always protect better. Afterall, the idea is to minimize/eliminate metal to metal contact - though at best it is a fool's persuit; that aint never gonna happen. The agents contained in organic oils are there to help stabilize viscosity as engine temps change, loads, sheering force, etc. But since there is little to NONE in Synthetic means that it certainly lasts longer doing that job, as it's not an additive per-say, but an inherent quality of the Synthetic base itself. It's the difference of just simply doing the job right, or forcing the job to be done of a weaker, lesser base.

The stuff that makes oil DO that in the first place, especially in organic tends to degrade quicker than synthetic - and if you pick up and read that PDF I mentioned, will lend an even more interesting slant to the debate. Please do find it. If you are unable to, PM me your e-mail and I will zap it off to you. It is SO worth the time to sift through. The fellow even performed his own homework on many brands of organic and synthetic oils, bends, multi-grades and straight grades. There is just so much to learn, whether you are a pro, enthusiast or the raw n00b.

And to help back-up BlazerLT on the subject, yup, he's right. The "W" is merely how an oil flows at freezing temperatures. A Synth oil rated say at 10w30 flows initially a bit thicker than a 5w30, requiring more "pump-up" pressure to get to top engine parts. But once there, creates a film just like a 30 weight oil. However, unlike organic fluids/oil - maintains this characteristic far, far longer only because there is not to much "playing around" with the blend, additive packs and of course no organic base stock. The organic in the same viscosity will have itself gum and slugde up when the add-pack is spent and shearing eats up all of it's good qualities. The detergents start to also break down quickly at that point and begin to make up gum and varnish. Also - having oil that flows a bit easier at start up allows for far better fuel economy and maintain a solid layer of protection, once again; synthetics being outrageously excellent in this area.

When Ford decided to specify 5w20 in most of their engines, this was a move to appease EPA demands. Thinner oil makes for less drag on the oil pump and flows nearly like water at operating temps. The end result: a few bucks saved for the end-user at the pump and reducing cold-time emissions, engine drag and giving Ford the ability to say, "Our vehicles meet EPA guidelines..." - at the cost of engine longevity. All of my friends back here at home hear me simply say, "Yeah, do the switch - and go synthetic. You will thank me when your Z-tech motor runs longer than the rest of the car." Ford, like anyone else can care less what you do when the vehicle warranty is up. You are not their problem if the engine lasts only 75K miles, and just 2 days outside of factory warranty. But I digress...

(I am good at that!)

Synthetics on the other hand do not shear as much or at all, maintaining flow and filming qualities far longer in addition to the benefits you mentioned. TBN also is a big factor in the longevity of both oil changes and engine parts - Synth's got that in spades. And it stays *GOOD* at being a 30 weight film/shearing strength index all through it's temperature range for at least 2x longer than organic oils in the same application. And...erm, that's all I have to say I guess. Have a good night guys!

Oh, and I know I am late, but congrats on the promotion BlazerLT - well earned!

[blazes9395]

Originally Posted by wolfox

I read you 5x5 there, Blazes - I guess my only argument, looking on this hindsight is thus:

Where I was not so clear, and thought to pipe up about was where you said that the heavier base stocks protect better, in the light of referring to organic oil. I was thinking, "Not reeeaaaaally when compared to a quality synth - and here's why..." I have disassembled an old and broken in half Olds 307 C.I.D. engine that merely subsisted on SF grade or slightly better synthetics for 230K miles, and saw maybe 2 oil changes a year until the end of it's 18 year life. Compared to a low mileage motor (45K miles, Another Olds 307) on regular, factory specified oil changes of recommended grade/viscosity organic oil - the difference was like night and day. Granted, there are many factors that would have put the grooves I have seen lightly worn on the cam lobes - usually due to normal operation (as they were just light score marks, really)but they were completely *absent* in the high-mileage 307. No noticable cylinder wear either, but there was a ridge on the low mileage motor... etc...etc. Both were rated to run on either 5w30 or 10w30 SF/CD, both GOT that - just that one had synth sloshing through it and it made an immediate, visual difference to my relatively young eyes back then.


True, there really is no way to argue fluid dynamics, what you say is 100% correct. Trade-off's are also correct, and your basis for our mutual debate is sound. The point I was simply trying to make, and it seems that we agree there:

Synthetics do the job better. Higher numbered stock will always protect better. Afterall, the idea is to minimize/eliminate metal to metal contact - though at best it is a fool's persuit; that aint never gonna happen. The agents contained in organic oils are there to help stabilize viscosity as engine temps change, loads, sheering force, etc. But since there is little to NONE in Synthetic means that it certainly lasts longer doing that job, as it's not an additive per-say, but an inherent quality of the Synthetic base itself. It's the difference of just simply doing the job right, or forcing the job to be done of a weaker, lesser base.

The stuff that makes oil DO that in the first place, especially in organic tends to degrade quicker than synthetic - and if you pick up and read that PDF I mentioned, will lend an even more interesting slant to the debate. Please do find it. If you are unable to, PM me your e-mail and I will zap it off to you. It is SO worth the time to sift through. The fellow even performed his own homework on many brands of organic and synthetic oils, bends, multi-grades and straight grades. There is just so much to learn, whether you are a pro, enthusiast or the raw n00b.

And to help back-up BlazerLT on the subject, yup, he's right. The "W" is merely how an oil flows at freezing temperatures. A Synth oil rated say at 10w30 flows initially a bit thicker than a 5w30, requiring more "pump-up" pressure to get to top engine parts. But once there, creates a film just like a 30 weight oil. However, unlike organic fluids/oil - maintains this characteristic far, far longer only because there is not to much "playing around" with the blend, additive packs and of course no organic base stock. The organic in the same viscosity will have itself gum and slugde up when the add-pack is spent and shearing eats up all of it's good qualities. The detergents start to also break down quickly at that point and begin to make up gum and varnish. Also - having oil that flows a bit easier at start up allows for far better fuel economy and maintain a solid layer of protection, once again; synthetics being outrageously excellent in this area.

When Ford decided to specify 5w20 in most of their engines, this was a move to appease EPA demands. Thinner oil makes for less drag on the oil pump and flows nearly like water at operating temps. The end result: a few bucks saved for the end-user at the pump and reducing cold-time emissions, engine drag and giving Ford the ability to say, "Our vehicles meet EPA guidelines..." - at the cost of engine longevity. All of my friends back here at home hear me simply say, "Yeah, do the switch - and go synthetic. You will thank me when your Z-tech motor runs longer than the rest of the car." Ford, like anyone else can care less what you do when the vehicle warranty is up. You are not their problem if the engine lasts only 75K miles, and just 2 days outside of factory warranty. But I digress...

(I am good at that!)

Synthetics on the other hand do not shear as much or at all, maintaining flow and filming qualities far longer in addition to the benefits you mentioned. TBN also is a big factor in the longevity of both oil changes and engine parts - Synth's got that in spades. And it stays *GOOD* at being a 30 weight film/shearing strength index all through it's temperature range for at least 2x longer than organic oils in the same application. And...erm, that's all I have to say I guess. Have a good night guys!

Oh, and I know I am late, but congrats on the promotion BlazerLT - well earned!

I agree 100%
I found a link on the whole book online. I have read some very interesting things in this research paper/book. So thanks for that very good piece of information.

[blazerboy2005]

ok guys let me tune you in a little i have verry hi oil pressure its 60 at idle an almost at 80 wile driving bepending how warm the motor is when its warmer it runs at 40 wile at idle and 60 when driving i think some thig is pluged up thats why i going to flush and switch to sinthetic 5w30 soud good

[BlazerLT]

Thanks wolfox!

yip, sounds good.

I am personally running 0w30 in mine and from now on that is all I will EVER use.

It warms up twice as fast, it allows me to start my engine when it is -25f or less out my door and it saves me money.

I hnestly don't know why ANYONE uses anything higher than it.

It gets tothe top end almost immediately, it warms up SO fast, and it is still a w30 at 212f or proper operating temperature.

[blazes9395]

Has the reading always been high? Could be a bad oil pressure sender unit, or a partially stuck pressure relief valve on the oil pump. Yeah, I'd say run some engine cleaner in it, and put a good synthetic and a good oil filter on it and take it from there.

[BlazerLT]

flush and synthetic fill with a NON fram oil filter.