Should churches be burying aborted babies ashes? Why are they against it

[TexasF355F1]

Originally Posted by DGB454

Good things they could be doing??? Look around. They do more good for communities than any other group out there. They out give any other group. They donate more of their time to help than any other group. They are usually the ones that start the orginizations that you see in the community that reach out to the poor and homeless and they continue to support them with their money and time. So when they do something to draw attention to the fact that these children aren't just medical waste you complain they should be doing more? What have you done lately?
People who live in glass houses.......

Very well said. I would go as far as saying that the churches do more to help in the community than the own fucking government.

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

And the fact that the churches see the aborted child as a person with a soul is why they're giving a proper burial. Of course it is going to draw attention; if their motives are to draw attention, then they're wrong for doing it; however if doing it to pay respect to a person and provide a decent burial, then they're in the right.

I couldn't agree more. I just still have the hardest time trying to fathem how people see an embrio as nothing more than a cell. A cell is an organism. An organism is life. The sadest thing is that the majority of women who get abortions regret there decisions down the road and it affects them in very negative light. If it weren't for the embrio, the person getting the abortion wouldn't be alive to commit their insensitive, immoral crime. How can someone be against murder, but yet find it okay to kill a fetus?

[Muscletang]

Here is a very interesting fact that was presented at my church when they talked about abortion.

You will get fined upwards of $30,000 for killing an eagle, destroying their nest, or stealing an egg.
You can go down the street though and legally kill a child.
No wonder so many people are saying America is going down the crappy.

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Here is a very interesting fact that was presented at my church when they talked about abortion.

You will get fined upwards of $30,000 for killing an eagle, destroying their nest, or stealing an egg.
You can go down the street though and legally kill a child.
No wonder so many people are saying America is going down the crappy.

Ummmmm...well, eagles are endangered species. How many are left in the world? A couple thousand? How many humans are there in the world. 6.1 BILLION! I'm going to come out and say that I would put the life of a member of an endangered species over an unborn fetus anyday.

The population explosion of the human race is causing astronomical problems. We are losing species to extinction left and right and destroying ecosystems and forests are being destroyed and billions of full grown people are starving in foreign countries and in the richest country in the world, where we live in paradise, we act like abortion is the greatest crime in the history of the world. Seriously though, where are the priorites. /Rant off

[fredjacksonsan]

Thrasher, I agree with the importance of preserving environments and species.

But how can you POSSIBLY put an animal's life before a human's? It's unconscionable.

[thrasher]

What is an animal? What makes a "human" better than an "animal"? Adult male chimpanzees have the cognitive abilities of a 12 year old child. That's right, a 12 year old. Do you know how many adult chimps are left in the world? 8,000. Do you know how many adul humand are left in the world. Oh, about 4,000,000,000. How is the life of an unborn, premature, physically incapable of caring for itself child worth more than a full grown chimpanzee? I just don't get it.

[RickwithaTbird]

Abortion is a very touchy subject because it is something that people have a very hard time accepting other peoples beliefs about.

If my girlfriend/wife/chick on the side was pregnant, I would definitely not want to have the child aborted. I would want MY KID to grow up, and meet me, and learn from me because I feel that I have a lot of good things to teach to my children whenever I have them.

Am I Pro Choice or Pro Life? I am pro choice. An unborn fetus has not come to realize that it is alive. If it is about 6 months along the gestation period, I believe that is different, once the fetus reaches the point that it realizes it is there, it should be too late to abort. If the woman is 2 months pregnant, and has put 2 months of thought into it, and realized that carrying out her full pregnancy will ruin her job/life/marriage/mental health... then I believe in her right to decide. The baby, even though it is sad to say, will never know.

If you were aborted, would you be mad? No. You wouldnt have ever formed an opinion, you would have never seen what there is to lose. If the child was never formed, it is not much more unfair than the parents just not having sex at all. If they didnt have sex, the child would not get the chance to live. That's not unfair. I don't want people to change their minds about it. If you think it's wrong, then I respect that. I respect the sincere care you have for other people who havent even developed a conscience yet. But in my opinion, it is unnecessary, so I believe in choice.

Back to the topic. If I was the type of person who would abort my child, I would not want somebody else taking the ashes, and taking the responsibilty of giving them a religious burial. However, If they want to have a religious ceremony to pay tribute to unborn aborted fetuses, then I support that whole heartedly. Its just that the church has no rights to the ashes of the child, more than your average joe. Hospitals, or morgues, or whoever it is that cremates these fetuses, should absolutely not let the remains be handed out to any organization... even a church. It is not their right to decide. If I aborted a child, and a church buried the ashes, I would be offended. If I wanted it to be taken care of that way, then I would have done it myself. You can not compare the ashes of an unborn, to a pop can on the street. I think that when the woman aborts, she should be asked if she has a preferrence on what they do with the ashes. If the woman has no preference then I think it is just fine for the church to step in at that point. But if a woman is not Christian, and does not believe that the fetus has developed a life, I understand how honoring it with a burial without her consent would be insulting.

I think that they should all just accept that other people have different beliefs, and that if they are offending people by aborting, and have no remorse over killing their fetus, then they should loosen up their asses, and let the church carry on the burial for their own peace of mind. The "mother" is not forced to participate, not forced to watch, not forced to be there, not forced to hear about it.... not forced to do anything... I think it is selfish of them to not let the church do what they feel is just.

[rapstagangsta]

Originally Posted by thrasher

What is an animal? What makes a "human" better than an "animal"? Adult male chimpanzees have the cognitive abilities of a 12 year old child. That's right, a 12 year old. Do you know how many adult chimps are left in the world? 8,000. Do you know how many adul humand are left in the world. Oh, about 4,000,000,000. How is the life of an unborn, premature, physically incapable of caring for itself child worth more than a full grown chimpanzee? I just don't get it.

Am I right in saying that you think there are humans which simply "make up the numbers" in our population, and if someone dies, you think "Oh well, theres still 4 billion(or however many people there are on this planet) odd people left, so it's no biggie"?
As for humans vs animals, I would value the life of an unborn child over an animal any day(don't get me wrong, sometimes I wish I was a chimp ). Why? Because that child is part of my species. An animal, no matter how closely related, is not part of the human race, simple as that.

Would you be upset if somebody burried your grandfather without any permission? What if your grandfather wasn't a christian?

I'd be upset, especially if he was still alive

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by thrasher

What is an animal? What makes a "human" better than an "animal"? Adult male chimpanzees have the cognitive abilities of a 12 year old child. That's right, a 12 year old. Do you know how many adult chimps are left in the world? 8,000. Do you know how many adul humand are left in the world. Oh, about 4,000,000,000. How is the life of an unborn, premature, physically incapable of caring for itself child worth more than a full grown chimpanzee? I just don't get it.

Well, you're right. There ARE some people that are worth less than animals. Some of them have already been born and are posting on the internet.

[RickwithaTbird]

the point is not whether a chimp is as important as a child. The point is....

Do the churches have the right to give a religious burial to the ashes of unborns, if the "mother" does not approve?

I think the "mother" has the right to decide. I do think that the service the church is doing for the babies is definitely something that would cause guilt in the "mother's" heart, so if she doesnt approve, I say they shouldn't be able to do it. It may be selfish, but they have the right to be selfish, thats America.

[fredjacksonsan]

But why would the mother have guilt if it was medical waste to her? Saying that she has guilt leads to the conclusion that she thinks she did something wrong. If she really believed she did nothing wrong, she would not care at all.

[2strokebloke]

Originally Posted by DGB454

Good things they could be doing??? Look around. They do more good for communities than any other group out there.

Like what? Even the masons and shriners do more stuff. Even hippies and handicapped people do more stuff. Someone who goes to church and donates time and money for a cause is not the same thing as the church donating time and money IMHO.

But why would the mother have guilt if it was medical waste to her? Saying that she has guilt leads to the conclusion that she thinks she did something wrong. If she really believed she did nothing wrong, she would not care at all.

That's a kind of loaded question. Look, just because it's aborted (and that's life, some people die in the womb, other get hit by cars, fall out of airplanes, die of cancer, or live to be 90 years old - that's life and it isn't fair. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's not my problem, and it's not your problem to worry about - unless you yourself are faced with the decision of getting an abortion. There's a million things you could worry about that would be time better spent than criticizing others for something that has no negative effect on your life whatsoever) doesn't mean that it's not part of her body, and doesn't mean that she has no right to decide how it is to be disposed of and doesn't mean she can't be upset if somebody steals the fetus. I mean I'm not really attached to my trashcan, but if somebody stole it and performed a funeral for it, I'd be kind of freaked out.

[fredjacksonsan]

2stroke, I agree that until/unless faced with the decision, it shouldn't be worried about, and I hope (unrealistically) that no one has to make that decision. But I'm addressing the funeral issue.

Difficult to convey this thought in writing, but:

woman has abortion. woman feels guilty. fetus buried with ceremony. woman might feel better that child "went to heaven". But I agree that it may keep the memory of what happened alive.

woman has abortion. woman doesn't feel guilty. woman should not care what happens to "medical waste", whether it's burned in the incinerator or put into the ground and buried. If she did care, then that would indicate that she is more like the first woman.

So if you care and feel guilty, by human nature that indicates you think you did something wrong. This leads to the thought that if you did something wrong, it's not just a medical procedure but the taking of a life. (In which case a decent burial is a good idea)

If my appendix is removed, I wouldn't care what they did with it afterwards. But if I thought that I was doing something wrong by removing the appendix, I would want some control over it afterwards, which is where the discussion is coming from.

Of course, I haven't addressed some views, just the guilt issue.

[2strokebloke]

So are you suggesting that church was doing this just to make people feel guilty? So they could feel bad? I don't think most people are overjoyed when they get an abortion, I doubt these actions make anybody feel better.
So once again I must state that it's just a grab for attention that's doing nobody any good.

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by RickwithaTbird

the point is not whether a chimp is as important as a child. The point is....

Do the churches have the right to give a religious burial to the ashes of unborns, if the "mother" does not approve?

I think the "mother" has the right to decide. I do think that the service the church is doing for the babies is definitely something that would cause guilt in the "mother's" heart, so if she doesnt approve, I say they shouldn't be able to do it. It may be selfish, but they have the right to be selfish, thats America.

If the mother doesn't approve? Regardless of the right/wrong of the abortion argument, she has just had a procedure to remove something she didn't want from her body. She has cast it away. It is dead. It is no longer a person (and, depending on the woman, was never a person at all). If it WAS a person to her, doesn't a decent burial make sense? If it WASN'T a person, then who the hell cares WHAT somebody does afterwards?

The fact that some religious people think that what came out was a person and deserves a decent burial is, I think, showing the conviction with which they believe.

From a "pro-fetus" point of view, a person has been killed. Anyone else that dies would have a ceremony if they wanted to; even mass murderers get a funeral of their choice after they receive the death penalty.

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by 2strokebloke

So are you suggesting that church was doing this just to make people feel guilty? So they could feel bad? I don't think most people are overjoyed when they get an abortion, I doubt these actions make anybody feel better.
So once again I must state that it's just a grab for attention that's doing nobody any good.

I'm sure that some of the church people were thinking it would cause guilt, and maybe bring some people around to their way of thinking. And the very self righteous attitude of some religious people would make it the grab for attention you're talking about so I agree with you there.

But some of them also must be burying the fetus for the right reasons.

I don't think of people being overjoyed about abortion either; but I've known some people (mostly secondhand, and no, none of the abortions were because of me) that had it done and not cared, and one woman that bragged she had had five abortions. But the majority of women I've known that have had it done did feel guilt and it bothered them for some time.

So maybe having the woman check a box indicating what she wants done with what is left over after the surgery would be a good idea.

-edit- and of course the government will get involved, as I'm sure there are laws regarding medical waste disposal that must be followed.....