Skyline GTR34 vs E46 M3

[del]

i'd have to go with the GTR on this. no i don't have personal experience with it, just goin with what i see, read, and hear and i believe i've seen that video Tat is talkin about, the M3 didn't look too comfortable around the turns compared to the rest. the M3 is a great car, but in this comparo at least, the GTR is winner.

[GKR]

No question the GTR is quicker around a circuit. It just is. Those times at the NR are all 'unofficial' because, in the case of the R33 squeeking in under 8 minutes, it was running on specially cut semi racing tires. The 911 GT3 holds the record for totally standard, off the showroom floor production car record (not including all-out supercars).

The thing with NR times is that they should really be used as a guide only and not a definitive measurement. Any car that gets under 8 mins is a bloody fast car. There are 911's tuned by Gemaballa and Ruf that can lap in the 7'30 bracket which is just insane for a road car. The reason that they vary so much is that the track consitions vary so much. From day tp day and even hour to hour, it can vary temendously. All who have driven it say no two laps are the same. This is why manufaturers use it so much as a test and developmnet venue. Also, some of those times that you'll see quoted weren't even done in a closed track, meaning there was normal traffic on there too

And no the M3 won't get anywhere near 8 minutes and below. But, when you add in the grin factor and forget about bare numbers for a second, I'm sure the M car still score very highly.

[CrzyMR2T]

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

If its a E36 then sure a R34 should take it, the E36 M3 is much weaker then the E46 M3. What I would really like to see is N-Ring times for both of these cars.

well there are other sources where the 350z beats, or comes close to the e46 m3, and the r34 skyline beats the 350z track edition pretty easily. of course, it also depends on what track it is, but from what ive seen, i almost garantee you that the skyline will beat the m3 9 out of 10 times.

[youngvr4]

well the video i have the m3 wasn't sliding at all, but the fact that it is rwd made it hard to compete with the two winners
the skyline r34 spec II and the evo-7 gsr

i would say that the skyline is slightly faster all around

[engineer]

the r34 GTR is not putting down 330hp at the wheels, stock. it is putting down 290-300hp at the flywheel. the M3 has around 360hp. AWD is ultimately inferior, but it is piss easy to drive therefore most normal drivers would be quicker in the GTR. a good driver should be quicker in the M3.

i still like the skyline more.

the difference is this.

with only $4000 australian (US$3000) in mods; exhaust, ECU, etc. i have seen a R34 GTR turn out 370hp at the wheels. i repeat. stock + $3000 in mods = 370whp.

[CrzyMR2T]

Originally Posted by engineer

the r34 GTR is not putting down 330hp at the wheels, stock. it is putting down 290-300hp at the flywheel. the M3 has around 360hp. AWD is ultimately inferior, but it is piss easy to drive therefore most normal drivers would be quicker in the GTR. a good driver should be quicker in the M3.

i still like the skyline more.

the difference is this.

with only $4000 australian (US$3000) in mods; exhaust, ECU, etc. i have seen a R34 GTR turn out 370hp at the wheels. i repeat. stock + $3000 in mods = 370whp.

in this case, the skyline is still the faster car. the skylines suspension is just set up for more performance. if the regular m3 suspension was setup like the csl version, it might be quicker than the skyline. awd is still an advantage in certain areas for regular production cars though. all wheel drive cars dominate on the tsukuba circuit.

[TatII]

Originally Posted by engineer

the r34 GTR is not putting down 330hp at the wheels, stock. it is putting down 290-300hp at the flywheel. the M3 has around 360hp. AWD is ultimately inferior, but it is piss easy to drive therefore most normal drivers would be quicker in the GTR. a good driver should be quicker in the M3.

i still like the skyline more.

the difference is this.

with only $4000 australian (US$3000) in mods; exhaust, ECU, etc. i have seen a R34 GTR turn out 370hp at the wheels. i repeat. stock + $3000 in mods = 370whp.

you obviously you know nothing about the GT-R. the ATESSA ETS Pro is nothing like a convential AWD such as a EVO or a Audi or a Subaru. the Skyline GT-R uses a reactive style center differential. which means the computer uses sensors from each corner of the car, and in the diff's taking samples at 1000 times per second to monitor which wheel needs traction the most.

on the top end, the GT-R is completely RWD which means it doesn't have the handicap of needing to drive all 4 wheels. which means the M3 has nothing on it up top. also the M3 does not have 360hp. not even the CSL makes that much hp. the M3 makes 333hp and waaay less tq then a R34 GT-R.

and you think the R34 honestly make 300 crank hp? lets use some logic now. a R34 weights 3500 lbs, a U.S spec STi weights around 3300 lbs.
the U.S spec STi puts down 260whp at all 4 wheels. yet it only runs a 13.3- 13.2 on average. even at 260whp at all 4 wheels, given the typical AWD drivetrain loss being 25% its making a good amount more then 300 crank hp which the STi is rated at.

now the GT-R weights 200 lbs more, yet it runs 12.9's on average. so logic serves that it makes even more then 260whp at all 4 wheels. by running 2-3 tenths of a second faster, it needs atleast to add another 20-30whp, now it also happen to weight 200 lbs more which would require another 20whp to moviate the extra weight.

so in total it logical to have around 40-50 more whp then a U.S. spec STi. however since the ATESSA ETS Pro does not behave like a typical AWD drive train, expect it to trap a few mph higher then the STi by using less power since its only RWD after first gear on take off. so i'll be nice and say its rated on the lower end of the spectrum which is around 40 more whp. this makes it right at around 300whp.

[emokid15]

Skyline All The Way!!!!

[DinanM3_S2]

OK, what im having problems with is this "it runs 12.9's on average." Heres quite a few sites, including a pro-skyline one, that are saying 13.7ish. I havn't seen a 12.9 time once, anywhere from a stock GT-R on my google search.

http://www.jbskyline.net/R34/GTR/Specs/

http://www.supercars.net/cars/1999@$...e%20GT-Rx.html

http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/vehicle.aspx?carID=2744

http://www.engine-power.com/nissan/skyline_gtr_r34.html

You also mentioned that 13.7 is from R&T magazine too, so what I've found is that numerous sources, including respected journalists say that the Skyline GT-R does mid to high 13s, which is what one would expect from the kind of hp and weight numbers the Skyline has. I'm not trying to bash this car, the more I read about it the better it sounds, but it really isn't this unstopable car that people build it up to be. The AWD system is great, and the RB26 is a great engine, far more modable then my M3, but stock v. stock I still havn't seen actual evidence of the 12.9 times you've found. Give me some links, and make sure were talking about a GT-R, not the NUR, a Nismo, or the V-spec.

[TatII]

sure i have 3 videos of them on a road test by BMI running 12.9's and they are standard V-spec models that are bone stock. feel free to PM me, i'll send it to you via aim.

one was a bone stock V-spec I racing a 996 turbo. it ran a 13.0

one was a R33 GT-R racing a RX-7 R2 it ran a 13.0

one was a R34 V-spec I racing a NSX S zero, it ran a 12.8

one was a head to head battle between a V-spec I and a V-spec II,

both ran 12.9's.

these were all done on BMI and all the test were done with radar and all cars racing each other are stock vs stock.

if you want these videos i'll gladly send them to you. just remember to PM me, i'm very anxious to prove you wrong

i'll even throw in a video of a R34 V-spec II goin heads up against a 996 turbo around Sugo circuit to show its stock handling and braking abilities

and by the way, the only difference between a standard GT-R and a v-spec is that the standard GT-R doesn't have the advanced aero system, along with a less aggressive AWD and AWS programing. in the earlier GT-R's such as the R32, the standard GT-R's HICAS is mostly mechanical. the V-spec I and V-spec II was a upgrade to make the AWD behave better by making it completely computer and electronic controlled. it really doesn't effect 1/4 mile times, mostly in time attack times it will effect the greatest.

these cars are far from unstopable. a Z06 would leave them for dead. and as you see in the videos i want to send you, the GT-R that ran a 12.8 still lost to a stock NSX S zero in the 0-400m. and the one that ran a 13.0 got rapped by the 996 turbo.

however for what it is, its a amazing machine. pretty much the best of its kind. the only japanese car that was faster then it was the limited production 3.2 liter NSX-R's. however then we can always throw in the limited production run Nismo 400R's or the R34 Nur-spec edition to level the playing field.

edit:
also the info on your links have some wrong info on it.

on one of the links its says that it has macpherson struts up front.

that is indeed incorrect. the GT-R uses double wishbone suspension up front. you should not trust these sites as they can't even get such a simple thing like that right.

i have a BMI video of a full walk around of the GT-R and it shows the front suspension component and it clearly shows the front steering knuckle found on those with a short arm long arm suspension setup, even the front shock body doesnt' look like the ones found on a mac pherson strut type suspension.

as you can tell from all these info that i learned from BMI its not a ghetto little video series but a very very in dept through japanese video series. if your curious to see that video too, i'll gladly show it to you as well.

[engineer]

dont BMI always equip the cars with semi slicks? ADVAN A048's usually sometimes the dunlop DJ01's. that would improve times heaps. and TAT the reason the GTR is faster is not because its peak HP is so high but because of its innovative AWD and extra 600cc (over evo & STI) and twin setup. here in aus we have heaps of skylines. stock R34 GTR's only dyno about 30-50hp more than the claimed 280hp.

[Master Hiko]

BMI doesnt always equip ADVANS to the cars, and all of the races always state specs of the car (even when its stock) so you would know. and even if they did equip ADVANS to all their cars, they equiped ADVANS to ALL their cars so there is no advantage.

ps
also something i noticed, Takuya (Gan-sans kid) is the beest driver for the drags. he always gets the best takeoff and he set the record with the Type S Zero that ran 12.4 (fastest for stock NSX). but at the track, i would rather have Gan-san driving, hes an animal. he lead all but the last lap in the NSX-R vs both lambos and the 360 (and something else). BMI is gold to me.

[TatII]

Originally Posted by engineer

dont BMI always equip the cars with semi slicks? ADVAN A048's usually sometimes the dunlop DJ01's. that would improve times heaps. and TAT the reason the GTR is faster is not because its peak HP is so high but because of its innovative AWD and extra 600cc (over evo & STI) and twin setup. here in aus we have heaps of skylines. stock R34 GTR's only dyno about 30-50hp more than the claimed 280hp.

they use stock tires on the cars. whenever they do a track battle, they always show you the tires they use and they are always the stock potenza's on the GT-R.

also you say its the AWD that makes the GT-R faster, however its also peak hp. how do you think it can keep it up with a NSX on the top end yet weights around 600 lbs more? a NSX will walk all over the EVO and STi on the top end like nothing. however the NSX barely inches on the GT-R up top. so where did all this magical top end come from? the AWD switching to RWD? then how did it over come the extra weight disadvantage?

also even with the AWD, the NSX will still out launch a GT-R sometimes at hte drags. so how does the semi slick on a AWD car allow it to lose to a MR setup?

also the GT-R is only .1 liter larger then the U.S. spec STi. here in the states the STi runs on a EJ25

another thing, the Twin turbo setup does not nessacarily mean its better, its not the sequential type that you see on a JZA80 supra or the FD3S RX-7. they actuall run in parallel instead of in series so that means there is really no top end advantage by running this setup other then the fact that it just makes straight up more hp then even the U.S 2.5 liter STi which happen to put down 260whp at all 4 wheels doing the calculations it has a true crank hp of 325hp. how is a car taht weights 200 more then a STi making same power run 4 tenths of a second faster?

you have gave me all your reasons, and i have gave you my reasons for doubting your reasons, i threw in counter logic and such. also most of the stats i get is from RazorGTR himself since i had to do a 15 page technical report on a Skyline GT-R for my class and i go to a automotive engineering school.

[CrzyMR2T]

i saw the front suspension taken out of an r34 skyline, and it looked like a double wishbone design, but all these other sources online said it used macpherson struts, so i was confused thinking i didnt look at the suspension good enough. i knew there was something wrong with the info. i think the older r32 skylines used macpherson struts up front though, and multilink in the rear.

[DinanM3_S2]

Originally Posted by TatII

sure i have 3 videos of them on a road test by BMI running 12.9's and they are standard V-spec models that are bone stock. feel free to PM me, i'll send it to you via aim.

one was a bone stock V-spec I racing a 996 turbo. it ran a 13.0

one was a R33 GT-R racing a RX-7 R2 it ran a 13.0

one was a R34 V-spec I racing a NSX S zero, it ran a 12.8

one was a head to head battle between a V-spec I and a V-spec II,

both ran 12.9's.

All right, now I see why we were finding such different times, I have been talking about the standard GT-R, you've been talking about the V-Spec this whole time. I still stand by the M3 being faster then the GT-R, but the V-Spec is another story.