More war crimes in Iraq

[zebrathree]

Flatrater: That info is completly bogus. Where did you get that "info" from?

[taranaki]

only link I found was here...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/HAG112A.html

note the author... Nicky Hager

Care to fill Hyatus in on the wonderful Mr Hager?

[zebrathree]

Oh God...have I got 5 years?

[Broke_as_****]

And removing Saddam from power is obviously such a huge step back in terms of human rights. God forbid someone starts removing these blemishes of humanity. Positive result from unpure movitvation = negative result? I hardly think so.

As for the ridiculous assumption that Saddam would have used WMD against US troops, now you're taking Bush's side. Break it down:

Saddam launches 100 scuds at US forces loaded with some funky shit.
\/
95 Scuds are intercepted and destroyed
\/
Minimal casualties among the highly prepared US forces (and you bet your ass they were).
\/
Massive civilian casualties among the Iraqi populace
\/
Bush is utterly vindicated and the US defeats Saddams military anyway. The world rejoices and Bush goes to DisneyLand.

Or

Saddam didn't have/got rid of/sold on Ebay all of his funky shit.
\/
US finds nothing after defeating Saddams military anyway.
\/
Bush looks stupid

Saddam didn't stay alive for decades as a murderous dictator (which brings many job hazards) because he was stupid.

[taranaki]

Now we are moving into the world of hypothesis.

[zebrathree]

After having a look at that stuff by flatliner, then the stuff by Hager, I have come to doubt Hager wrote it.

It's too full of shit for him.

[Broke_as_****]

Originally Posted by taranaki

Now we are moving into the world of hypothesis.

Sounds like thats where you are writing from.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by zebrathree

After having a look at that stuff by flatliner, then the stuff by Hager, I have come to doubt Hager wrote it.

It's too full of shit for him.

He's just hosting it,I think,it's a Listener article from way back.

[driftu]

Originally Posted by Broke_as_****

By fellow Iraqis under the banner of a murderous cleric who justifies near genocide in the name of a peaceful religion.

right the reason they rally behind him is cause his family has helped removed a occuping force in the past.

Originally Posted by broke_as_****

Sadrs militia and Islamic terrorists as a whole will keep on killing until they are killed because they have no other purpose.

makes me wonder if you know anything about islam. it is a peaceful religion and the only reason they are up in arms now or ever is cause they are tired of being used by the western world. when was the last time their country was in their control?

Originally Posted by broke_as_****

Whatever your opinion, there is war going on.

a unjust war started by a mad man and a fool. why should the innocent pay for it?

Originally Posted by broke_as_****

And you know what is his? The car bombs outside police stations, the guys strapping grenades to their chests and running into aid stations and the chants of a thousand ingnorant militia men shouting "Death to the Americians".

i am sure things would be different if he had army and funds that bush has. america started this war and they bitch and complain when they try to fight back the only way they can.

Originally Posted by broke_as_****

Don't let Bushes jumpsuit act throw you off, its the pilot with his thumb on the trigger. And that pilot is very good at what he does.

tell that to the families of the canadians who died of friendly fire in afghanistan because of these pilots that are so good at what they do.

Originally Posted by broke_as_****

And perhaps you would like to talk with the intelligence members of the rest of the the world that had come to the same conclusion. Even the Germans aggreed that Iraq had WMD.

great show me a link.


here is a little site for you to look at
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

most of these are innocent lives who just want to live and die in peace.

[thegladhatter]

Originally Posted by driftu

makes me wonder if you know anything about islam. it is a peaceful religion....

Bullshiite! Infidels need to die!! You get virgins in Paradise for martyring yourself killing infidels! "Peaceful religion"...palease!

[Broke_as_****]

Originally Posted by driftu

right the reason they rally behind him is cause his family has helped removed a occuping force in the past.

So hes a genocidial, depraved religion-warping cleric with experience. Thats much better. I'm sure that looks good on a resume.

makes me wonder if you know anything about islam. it is a peaceful religion and the only reason they are up in arms now or ever is cause they are tired of being used by the western world. when was the last time their country was in their control?

Makes me wonder if you have any grasp on the real world. And if being used means making billions off oil revenues, then I'm sure there is many countries willing to sign up for that. And lets see...that would be since the Iraqi government took power a few months ago. A government made up of the Iraqi people with the interests of the Iraqi people in mind. A government made possible and setup by the US. The way you tell it, it would seem the Iraqis did it all themselves and US is just there target shooting.

a unjust war started by a mad man and a fool. why should the innocent pay for it?

Ah yes of course, why not just leave. Probably because Iraq would dive into a smoldering pit of anarchy the likes of which the world rarely sees. How many innocents would be dead right now if Saddam was still in power? Or the Taliban in Afghanistan? How many more would die if no one did a damn thing about these people who believe the surest way to setup your afterlife retirement palace is to take everyone in a 30 yard radius with you? War is war, people will die, innocent and guilty. But this problem has been allowed to grow to the point of having no other choice. No longer can terrorist groups using mass murder as a political tool be allowed to exist. "US bomb kills two in Najaf. Good lord, world tragedy. Iran executes another 200 students. Well atleast they weren't killed by us." That what you getting at? You seem to think there is a way this could have been settled without anyone dying. If so I'd like to hear it. As far as "unjust", this war has fought and defeated a legacy of tyranny, oppression and murder. If you wouldn't stand against that what would you stand for? If you won't fight genocide, what will you fight? Where will you finally intervene? What does the body count have to be at for you to do anything? A 1000? 100,000? 1,000,000? Or do you just not give a damn?

i am sure things would be different if he had army and funds that bush has. america started this war and they bitch and complain when they try to fight back the only way they can.

Yes, blowing up an Iraqi police station or the UN HQ is truly furthering their cause. Beheading people and posting it on the internet really is just good publicity isn't it? The interm goverment of Iraq is inviting these people to be a part of their system. Sadr's followers have refused. Why? Because they have no political motivation, they just want to kill. Their power to create change would be in the Iraqi government, a government they are trying to tear down.

tell that to the families of the canadians who died of friendly fire in afghanistan because of these pilots that are so good at what they do.

And how many have been saved by close air support just in these two campaigns? Hundreds? Perhaps thousands? You like most people seem to have no sense of proportion, viewing absolutely nothing but the immediate result. People die in war. All sides from all causes. The US campaign in the last few years has certainly been one of the easiest on friendly fire and civilian deaths. How many times has the Coalition delayed entering a city or postponed an objective because the civilian body count would be unacceptable? How many weeks have Sadrs followers been asked to leave their bunker of a shrine peacefully and even invited to be a part of Iraqs future?

great show me a link.
http://www.worldthreats.com/middle_east/Iraq-WMD.htm
http://www.americanvoiceinstitute.or...O%20wAR.htm#18
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030205-1.html
http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch...hes/020503.htm
http://www.doctor-horsefeathers.com/archives/000296.php
There is more and better if you can sort through the useless crap clogging any search with WMD in it. Most of the best direct quotes are in newspaper sites but many require payment for access, something that I'm not going to do to prove a point that proves itself. The last one on there is just as a bonus.

here is a little site for you to look at
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Thats a joke. X amount dead. And I'm sure that all of them were killed by US bombs and bullets. The terrorists using civilians as human shields, denotating bombs in market places and spraying bullets from the back of a car had absolutely nothing to do with that. Here's a question: How many of that number died with a smoking AK-47 in their hands? The lack of uniforms does not make these who would hide among innocent any less of a threat or any less of terrorists. And heres a site for you: http://www.aljazeera.net It has many helpful links. Get a translation, follow some links and read up on how the US is planning genocide in Iraq. Why not read the outline for a brave new Islamic world where people are stoned, women are worthless and power mad clerics keep an world in ingnorance? Oh wait thats not new, thats the way it was 2000 years ago. Or just 2 years ago in Iraq and many other places in the world. Hey, wait a minute, there is still plenty of countries like this! Who needs history books! Experience brutal religious opression first hand!

most of these are innocent lives who just want to live and die in peace.

That would be great. Except thats not whats happening. Here you bring up your perfect world. How about all those people that just wanted to live their lives peacefully in New York? How about all those who wanted to live peacefully in all the 3rd world dictatorships around the world that are lying in big holes in the ground with dozens if not hundreds more like them? Do innocents die in war? Yes, and they shouldn't have to but it happens. Have they atleast died so that others may live better, free lives, or in the case of many places, just live at all? Yes. And I would consider that better than dying to increase the power of a madman who views human life as he would piles of dirt.

[driftu]

Originally Posted by thegladhatter

Bullshiite! Infidels need to die!! You get virgins in Paradise for martyring yourself killing infidels! "Peaceful religion"...palease!

read and learn
http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_intr.htm

[driftu]

Originally Posted by Broke_as_****

So hes a genocidial, depraved religion-warping cleric with experience. Thats much better. I'm sure that looks good on a resume.

it does if your being occupied. remember saddam? he was put into power by america.

Originally Posted by btoke_as_****

Makes me wonder if you have any grasp on the real world. And if being used means making billions off oil revenues, then I'm sure there is many countries willing to sign up for that. And lets see...that would be since the Iraqi government took power a few months ago. A government made up of the Iraqi people with the interests of the Iraqi people in mind. A government made possible and setup by the US. The way you tell it, it would seem the Iraqis did it all themselves and US is just there target shooting.

and lining a few american big corpirations pockets don't hurt either eh?
i am not saying the interm government is doing a good or bad job. i am just saying it isn't a iraqi government and they won't be happy till it is.

Originally Posted by broke_as_****

Ah yes of course, why not just leave. Probably because Iraq would dive into a smoldering pit of anarchy the likes of which the world rarely sees. How many innocents would be dead right now if Saddam was still in power? Or the Taliban in Afghanistan? How many more would die if no one did a damn thing about these people who believe the surest way to setup your afterlife retirement palace is to take everyone in a 30 yard radius with you? War is war, people will die, innocent and guilty. But this problem has been allowed to grow to the point of having no other choice. No longer can terrorist groups using mass murder as a political tool be allowed to exist. "US bomb kills two in Najaf. Good lord, world tragedy. Iran executes another 200 students. Well atleast they weren't killed by us." That what you getting at? You seem to think there is a way this could have been settled without anyone dying. If so I'd like to hear it. As far as "unjust", this war has fought and defeated a legacy of tyranny, oppression and murder. If you wouldn't stand against that what would you stand for? If you won't fight genocide, what will you fight? Where will you finally intervene? What does the body count have to be at for you to do anything? A 1000? 100,000? 1,000,000? Or do you just not give a damn?

you don't seem to get it. I AM AGAINEST ALL WAR. anytime a innocent life is taken it pisses off. i agree saddam had to go. it would of been better done by giving the people the means to fight. like in Afghanistan where the cia gave them weapons to free them selfs from the russians.

Originally Posted by broke_as_****

Yes, blowing up an Iraqi police station or the UN HQ is truly furthering their cause. Beheading people and posting it on the internet really is just good publicity isn't it? The interm goverment of Iraq is inviting these people to be a part of their system. Sadr's followers have refused. Why? Because they have no political motivation, they just want to kill. Their power to create change would be in the Iraqi government, a government they are trying to tear down.

and doesn't it seem like a great way to shut them up. sure you can join the government make a change the right way if you can get the votes in your favour. which isn't likely.

Originally Posted by broke_as_****

http://www.worldthreats.com/middle_east/Iraq-WMD.htm
http://www.americanvoiceinstitute.or...O%20wAR.htm#18
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030205-1.html
http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch...hes/020503.htm
http://www.doctor-horsefeathers.com/archives/000296.php
There is more and better if you can sort through the useless crap clogging any search with WMD in it. Most of the best direct quotes are in newspaper sites but many require payment for access, something that I'm not going to do to prove a point that proves itself. The last one on there is just as a bonus.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2083760/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3910915.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3903853.stm

and this my favorite
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3882145.stm

Originally Posted by broke_as_****

. How about all those people that just wanted to live their lives peacefully in New York?

and what did iraq have to do with 9/11?

[Broke_as_****]

Originally Posted by driftu

it does if your being occupied. remember saddam? he was put into power by america.

And no one seems to remember that when America occupies a country they bring food, band aids and fruit punch for everyone. The US occupation of Japan and west Germany after world war two certainly has destroyed those countries hasn't it?

and lining a few american big corpirations pockets don't hurt either eh?
i am not saying the interm government is doing a good or bad job. i am just saying it isn't a iraqi government and they won't be happy till it is.

Can't say that it does hurt to bring investment capital and jobs to the US. When the hell did it become a crime to make money? God forbid someone does something useful. And god forbid Iraq doesn't change over night. How the hell could anyone think that this was going to be quick? This will take years before it levels out. And don't forget that this is the "Interim" government, set in place to establish political parties and set up a system. Then the true Iraqi government will emerge. But that takes time, you can't demand instant results with this many people involved.

you don't seem to get it. I AM AGAINEST ALL WAR. anytime a innocent life is taken it pisses off. i agree saddam had to go. it would of been better done by giving the people the means to fight. like in Afghanistan where the cia gave them weapons to free them selfs from the russians.

Are. You. On. Crack. First you point out that, quote, "America put Saddam in power", and now you say it would have been better to arm more people like him. When the hell has that worked out? US helps Iraq against Iran. That worked great didn't it? US helps Afghanistan against the then USSR. Didn't hurt anyone else a bit down the road now did it? This course of action has never worked. Why you think it would have been a good idea is certainly a good question.
As for being against all war, it doesn't matter if you don't believe in it, the people driving the bomb cars do. The world problem of terrorism is a fact and no amount of "Please Stop" diplomacy is going to remove them. Finding and destroying these groups will. You think all these problems in Iraq would just go away if the US left? Look at Bosnia, there was an on going genocide there. With world and US involvement, you don't hear about it too much anymore. Why? Because its becoming its own stable country again.

and doesn't it seem like a great way to shut them up. sure you can join the government make a change the right way if you can get the votes in your favour. which isn't likely.

Now you won't even encourage them to take the peaceful route? What the hell kind of pacifist are you? As for votes in their favor: Are you joking? Do you not know how large the Shiite population is in Iraq ? And really, are you encouraging the promotion of radical, terroristic Islam? Because thats what Sadr stands for.

To continue this ridiculous link posting you start:
http://www.oneworld.net/article/view/69141/1
http://www.coe-dmha.org/HARIraq.cfm
http://www.refugees.org/news/press_r.../region.cfm#US
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/....aid.security/
Maybe you haven't learned that you can find whatever you want if you look hard enough or in many cases, just write your own version of events.

and what did iraq have to do with 9/11?

Do people actually think that there was some little building somewhere in Afghanistan with a cheerful burqua clad secretary at the front desk, Bin Laden in the back doing company pay roll and a sign out front that said "We kill because we care." This is a war on terrorism in all forms. From Islamic extremists to 3rd world dictators. I sincerely hope that it continues too. No amount of diplomacy is going to oust a murderous tyrant. Thats like fighting fire with toothpick. You say you are againt innocents dying. How about when they are killed in their own country by their own people by the thousands? Would you do anything then? Our just sit back and watch the body count rise on CNN all the while saying "I can't get involved because I don't believe in violence." No matter how much you would like to bury your head in the sand and hold out your "No War" picket sign, nothing can be done to remove this type of evil from the earth without some conflict.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by zebrathree

After having a look at that stuff by flatliner, then the stuff by Hager, I have come to doubt Hager wrote it.

It's too full of shit for him.

Its FLATRATER maybe you need some glasses so you can read!

And why is it stupid? Tell me about about Hager if you dare! Yes that is were I got the info I posted. I would of given you the site but it was more fun watching the reaction I got while you were trying to figure out where I got it from.

What is stupid is the link provided in the first post here! WTF has it got to do with war crimes, nothing. You have 2 groups shooting at each other yet one is holed up in a holy site because they know the American soliders won't enter. Yet they take aim from inside shooting at people! I have tear in my eyes over those innocent bastards inside that shrine holding up RPG's and rifles killing people. What they don't expect to be shot back at? Their is no innocent people inside that building so no war crime can be committed!

Also I tire of the other BS that is getting tossed around here. The one about 13,000 innoicent people getting killed by the big old nasty mean Americans. Truth be told most of them have been killed by their own kind and not the Americans. All those innocent people with the RPG and rifles on their arms, poor bastards with the bomb strapped to his chest, he was innocent and only decided to run around the neighborhood with a bomb on his chest, he wasn't going to hurt a soul with that bomb it was all in play. Must be a new game kids play in Iraq!

Prove to me all 13,000 Iraq citizens were killed by the Americans and that they were inocent. And don't use a BS site like you accused me of doing.