Hehe. Continue the abortion debate from the Bush vs. Kerry thread here!

[tenguzero]

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Originally posted by Flatrater-

"Try blaming the parents! Its the parents job in raising the children to be morally right, not the schools, not the media just the parents. Go tot he bars less and get involved with your kids, spend time with your kids. Do your job right and you may not have this problem."
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Of course it's the parents job. Though I may have forgotten to include this scenario in my list, surely you must have realized that this whole question ultimately comes back to the parents. But you've also proven my point by putting forth an instance where the parent is the problem. Now I ask you, what kind of parent do you think would BE the one to neglect their child, go to bars, spend food money on drugs, not give-a-crap about how their children are raised, etc.? The parent who was unable to have an abortion, and therefore had no choice BUT to bring the child to term. It's a horrible cycle! Careless parents breed careless children who will in turn (often) not think twice about spreading their legs and exercising poor moral judgement! These type of parents are too ridiculously ignorant to break the cycle of neglect, and too moronic to realize that they're only perpetuating the thing by spreading their legs again. That being said, don't even begin to entertain the idea that I'm trying to justify or make excuses for these scum, because I'm not. What I am doing, is laying out the psychology of how these people work.
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Originally posted by Flatrater-

"The "technical issue" of when life starts is only used to justify the issue! The technical issue is how the pro choice people justify the murder of an unborn child. Try using the issue of a life that cold have been and never will be! Techincally your arms, your legs isn't alive by your standards lets cut them off and throw them in the garbage. A single cell life is alive, it is splitting faster them you typed your post."
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So then, you feel that birth control in the form of The Pill, or that "morning after shot" thing is also murder? After all, you're aborting an egg, which is essentially a "potential life," correct? There's nothing wrong with this belief for anyone who does have it, and it's a perfectly justifiable practice to adhere to. However, since condoms aren't necessarily a 100% guarantee of safety, then the only truly safe course is abstinance until one means to procreate. The problem, is this generally goes against the basic human urge for intercourse, and I dare say the practice of denying these impulses is often based on a religious philosophy, which is ironically the seemingly #1 common ground amongst many of the pro-life persuasion (at least in my travels.) And it's unfare to condemn others because they don't share the same belief. I apologize for using this as an example (since it carries the potential to open up a whole new can of worms) but it helped me get through to my point.

At any rate, I'll say again that I abhor the practice of abortion just as much as the next person, but there are just too many factors that lead me to conclude, again, that there really is NO evidence that a fetus yet to show brain activity is truly "alive." Any claims up to this point attempting to show otherwise, are based purely on personal belief. Without the MOTHER'S life to continue the process, their will be no growth of said fetus, just like if you WERE to lop off an arm or a leg. Without the host body coordinating and providing fuel and other resources for cell growth, the limb is nothing more than flesh and bone. Yes, the potential for life IS there with a fetus, but until brain activity begins, and sentience is realized, it is nothing more than an extension of the mother's body.

And as far as saying that the rape claim is in no way typical, that is no doubt true. Just as is the scenario where complications arise because of pregnancy, and the mother is forced to abort to save her own life. These are rare, but they are factors nonetheless. Am I "reaching" with this statement? Most likely. But then again, when it comes to an issue as obviously pervasive, yet complicated and probably unsolvable as that of abortion, in the end, we're ALL reaching. I don't care WHO you are, your stance and logic is based purely on personal belief and speculation. And that is why this will probably NEVER be resolved without some part of the population being offended or put-upon. Should the practice be made illegal? My personal belief, feelings, and morals would seem to lead me in the direction of agreeing, simply because I feel that course would probably be the only way to properly deal with an otherwise continually debated, and yet never resolved, issue. I'm well aware that there comes a point when hard science should just let a problem like this go. And yet, I cannot simply throw my hands up and say "It should be made illegal! End of story!" Because then it feels like the problem is indeed just being "let go." And this does little to help us on the road to confronting other equally sticky issues like cloning and stem cell research.

[2Slow4U_Noob]

I don't know where some of you get off saying all girls who get abortions are just sluts. I'm sure most of the people in here are sexually active, so does that make your gf or whoever you are having sex with a slut?? Does having sex make ur parents bad parents?? You know that condoms are not entirely 100% dependent. Does knowing this prevent you from having sex?? It only takes 1 time for that condom to break. I'm sure alot of you have had "the scare" where ur gf is a lil late. Imagine being 20 yrs old an in college and finding out ur pregnant. Its easy for a guy to be anti -abortion because he isnt giving up anything. Its the women who have to drop out of school, raise their child in poverty, face society for being a single mother, and possibly be thrown out of the family. Is it really fair to that child to be born in these circumstances? Is it really fair that you get to tell that girl what she should do with her body? These "what if" arguments are dumb. "What if your parent had an abortion?" Who knows what would have happened to me then. Now you are talking about a soul and other religous issues. "What if that aborted child becomes a great world leader?" Well they could also become the worlds biggest serial killer or terrorist.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by 2Slow4U_Noob

I don't know where some of you get off saying all girls who get abortions are just sluts. I'm sure most of the people in here are sexually active, so does that make your gf or whoever you are having sex with a slut?? Does having sex make ur parents bad parents?? You know that condoms are not entirely 100% dependent. Does knowing this prevent you from having sex?? It only takes 1 time for that condom to break. I'm sure alot of you have had "the scare" where ur gf is a lil late. Imagine being 20 yrs old an in college and finding out ur pregnant. Its easy for a guy to be anti -abortion because he isnt giving up anything. Its the women who have to drop out of school, raise their child in poverty, face society for being a single mother, and possibly be thrown out of the family. Is it really fair to that child to be born in these circumstances? Is it really fair that you get to tell that girl what she should do with her body? These "what if" arguments are dumb. "What if your parent had an abortion?" Who knows what would have happened to me then. Now you are talking about a soul and other religous issues. "What if that aborted child becomes a great world leader?" Well they could also become the worlds biggest serial killer or terrorist.

Simple cure for that keep the panties up and go buy some toys!

I am a father of 3 children, my only daughter when my wife was carrying her almost died. We were making 3 trips a week to the doctor, my wife did almost die, we were forced to have my daughter delievered 5 weeks early so both could live. And now she is 13 year old.

BTW have you seen what a 13 week old fetus looks like?

[nova68]

abortion is killing!!!! have you ever seen the methods to kill the fetus (a human life) it is sick and wrong?? All i have to say is murder

[Flatrater]

Some quick facts!

• When does the unborn baby's heart begin to beat?

The heartbeat begins between the eighteenth and twenty-fifth day.

• When does the brain begin to function?
  
  Electrical brain waves have been recorded as early as forty days.
• How early can a baby survive outside the mother's womb?Currently, twenty weeks is considered the accepted minimum. However, this time will be reduced as medical technology continues to improve.
• What about cases of rape and incest?

Pregnancy from rape is extremely rare. A study of one thousand rape victims who were treated after the rape reported no pregnancies. There are no known studies of incest cases. Medically, we know pregnancy in these cases would be rare. As reasons for legalizing abortion rape and incest are nothing more than emotional screens used by those profiting from abortion. But we must approach the victim of rape or incest with great compassion. The woman has been subjected to an ugly trauma, and she needs love, support and help. But she has been the victim of one violent act. Should we now ask her to be a party to a second violent act -that of abortion? Unquestionably, many would return the violence of killing an innocent baby for the violence of rape. But, before making this decision, remember that most of the trauma has already occurred. She has been raped. That trauma will live with her all her life. Furthermore, this girl did not report for help, but kept this to herself. For several weeks or months, she has thought of little else. Now, she has finally asked for help, has shared her upset, and should be in a supportive situation. more information

• But what about the child with disease who will die a slow death or live his life as a burden to his family?
  
  Do you believe the new "ethic" should be that we kill the suffering or burdensome? Some of these cases are tragic, some are also inspirational. We cannot assume the responsibility for killing an unborn child simply because the child has not yet been seen in public. The child's place of residence does not change what abortion does - kill a human being.
• What about the population boom? We can hardly feed the people of the world now!
  
  True, the population of the world is growing, but population is not much of a problem in the United States. With a birth every 8 seconds and a death every 11 seconds, the U.S. population is growing at less than one percent per year. (www.census.gov)
  
  Population growth or decline compares replacement of the current number of reproductive age individuals with the number of babies being born. By this measure, the United States is now in a sharp population decline.
• How can a girl give up her own baby for adoption and go through life never knowing what is happening to her child?

Which is better to remember, "I gave my baby life. And because I loved him, I gave him into the arms of a loving couple" - or to remember, "I selfishly ended my baby's life?"

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by Flatrater

Some quick facts!

True, the population of the world is growing, but population is not much of a problem in the United States. With a birth every 8 seconds and a death every 11 seconds, the U.S. population is growing at less than one percent per year. (www.census.gov)

I did read somewhere that there are more abortions than live births in the US these days. This is depressing, as the above figure shows, there would be at least one abortion every 8 seconds.
Imagine one US soldier death every 8 seconds in Iraq?
Or one death every 8 seconds in a plane crash?
How long would that be tolerated??
Just because it happens to the unborn means, to society, its less important.
But its still wrong.
I do not want to make abortions illegal. That situation has its own problems. But the sheer weight of the tragedy as it is now is truly upsetting.

[Flatrater]

Like I said before I can care less what other people do with their bodies, but no one considers the body of the unborn baby. If you want an abortion go ahead its no skin of me.

But when it comes to abortion pay for it yourself don't ask the taxpayers to pay for it because they weren't the ones between yuor legs!

I really don't understand how someone can preach about US soliders getting killed in Iraq and then turn around and abort a baby!

[thegladhatter]

Originally Posted by 2Slow4U_Noob

I don't know where some of you get off saying all girls who get abortions are just sluts. I'm sure most of the people in here are sexually active, so does that make your gf or whoever you are having sex with a slut??

I don't recall anyone saying anybody were sluts. However, using murder as a form of birth control is kind of a slutty thing to do. If one is irresponsible enough to get pregnant with an unwanted child or a child they are unprepared to care for or deliver, one is rather slutty.

Originally Posted by 2Slow4U_Noob

Does having sex make ur parents bad parents??

MY parents were prepared to have a child. They WANTED a child. Therefore I don't think there was anything "slutty" going on.

Originally Posted by 2Slow4U_Noob

You know that condoms are not entirely 100% dependent. Does knowing this prevent you from having sex?? It only takes 1 time for that condom to break. I'm sure alot of you have had "the scare" where ur gf is a lil late. Imagine being 20 yrs old an in college and finding out ur pregnant.

Yep, condoms are NOT 100% reliable. This would lead one to think that the best option for 20 year old college students who aren't mature enough to handle a child is to KEEP THEIR PANTS ZIPPED AND THEIR SKIRTS DOWN!

Originally Posted by 2Slow4U_Noob

Its easy for a guy to be anti -abortion because he isnt giving up anything. Its the women who have to drop out of school, raise their child in poverty, face society for being a single mother, and possibly be thrown out of the family. Is it really fair to that child to be born in these circumstances? Is it really fair that you get to tell that girl what she should do with her body?

It seems odd to me that it is illegal for me to murder people. Who does the government think they are telling me I can't murder people. It's MY body! Why can't I use it to kill people?!?!

Originally Posted by 2Slow4U_Noob

These "what if" arguments are dumb. "What if your parent had an abortion?" Who knows what would have happened to me then. Now you are talking about a soul and other religous issues. "What if that aborted child becomes a great world leader?" Well they could also become the worlds biggest serial killer or terrorist.

It isn't the "what if" arguments that are dumb. Your post sure is though.

[2strokebloke]

All I have to say is that I'd rather see a "mother" get an abortion, than have her have the baby and leave it in a trash can somewhere. Of course, I'd rather somebody like that not even get pregnant in the first place.

When does the unborn baby's heart begin to beat?
The heartbeat begins between the eighteenth and twenty-fifth day

This seems somewhat early, I remember when studying about childbirth that the heart usually begins beating after the fourth week of pregnancy, so while 25 days is certainly a common possibility, 18 days is stretching it. The heart although beating, is also usually non functional until much later in pregnancy, you probably know that many babies are born with hearts that haven't formed completely yet (I believe it is called a septicular defect when the inner walls have not completely formed into distinct chambers) not that that has anything to with abortion really, but it's just an interesting fact.

I really don't understand how someone can preach about US soliders getting killed in Iraq and then turn around and abort a baby!

It's also confusing when people say that abortion is murdering a child, but they also believe that children should be tried as adults so that they can recieve the death penalty (not to suggest you hold this opinion, but some people do) - crazy world isn't it?

[thegladhatter]

It is also kind of weird that there are many who support abortion but will fight to the death to save whales. - crazy world isn't it? Yes it is.

[Oz]

If best effort is not going to be made raising the child in terms of love, support, encouragement and all of that crap, abortion is definately a feasable option.

With overpopulation imminenet or already present in many countries, the last thing we need is a child no one wants or cares about becoming a tax payers responsibility.

There would still be heaps of kids available for adoption even if abortion was legal and affordable, so I really don't see a problem.

[thegladhatter]

Originally Posted by Oz

If best effort is not going to be made raising the child in terms of love, support, encouragement and all of that crap, abortion is definately a feasable option.

Doesn't change the fact that it is murder. If the best effort isn't going to be made....they should abstain from sex. If they are unprepared and too immature to parent....they should understand that there are numerous forms of birth control that are much less leathal than murder.

Originally Posted by Oz

With overpopulation imminenet or already present in many countries, the last thing we need is a child no one wants or cares about becoming a tax payers responsibility.

I don't think we are talking third world countries here. The number of children in our societies really has little to do with the overpopulation elsewhere. I our countries I agree that taxpayers sure don't need an extra burden.

Originally Posted by Oz

There would still be heaps of kids available for adoption even if abortion was legal and affordable, so I really don't see a problem.

Heeps? Tell that to the thousands of prospective parents on waiting lists for adoptions.

[Oz]

If it was really murder, it wouldn't be legal in so many countries. You're killing a non-entity. Pro choice.

[DGB454]

That's a weak arguement. Just because something is legal in some other country doesn't make it right. Look at Iraq for instance. It was legal in Iraq for Sadaam to kill thousands in his country. Why? Because he made the laws. Now in countries where people actually vote on the laws (or the people that make the laws) that are in place it's a different story. But that still doesn't automatically make the laws right. People have been known to be fooled into favoring a particular view because of a particular intrest group.
THe thing that really bothers me about this whole abortion thing is that I am forced to pay for them by the Gov't. I don't believe in them and I will never support them. In my view it is murder. I am not forcing people not to get abortions so why are they forcing me to pay for them? I can't change the peoples mind who are confused by the media and interest groups that believe it's right and they will answer for it eventually. It's their choice and they will live with that choice even if there child won't. Just stop making me pay for their murder.

[dayna240sx]

Originally Posted by Oz

With overpopulation imminenet or already present in many countries, the last thing we need is a child no one wants or cares about becoming a tax payers responsibility.

There would still be heaps of kids available for adoption even if abortion was legal and affordable, so I really don't see a problem.

If you are worried about overpopulation, why don't we just go around murdering every loser that is on welfare who lazes around sucking off of society instead of going out and trying to get a job.
At least the unborn babies still have a chance in life to make something of themselves.
I say, if the women wants an abortion, she should have to do it herself. And hopefully she too will die in the process. Anyone that is sick enough to want to kill their unborn child deserves to die.