What happend to outdoing the Evo??

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by ldelaysionl

JDM EVO's don't make 276 hp at the wheels, that's at the flywheel. And you still haven't said how the EVO is "winning". Some Motor Trend test doesn't mean much to me, in the real world STi's have proven to be pretty even if not faster.

The gentelmans law (the one that limits Japanese cars to 276hp) messures the power at the wheels. That is why Supras with the same engine are 276hp in Japan and 320hp in America (because we count at the flywheel.) I have heard of Jspec Evos messuring over 300+hp at the flywheeel. If the STi is just barely matching the Evo now what about when the RS comes out in a few monthes? Or God forbid they should sell the VQ330 in the states? Plus the Evo is just as fast (if not faster) for a whole lot less money. Like I said before I really do hope that the Subies do win but they need to step up to the plate quick before the Evos get a foothold in America.

[LjasonL]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

The gentelmans law (the one that limits Japanese cars to 276hp) messures the power at the wheels. That is why Supras with the same engine are 276hp in Japan and 320hp in America (because we count at the flywheel.)

No it doesn't, Japanese Supras just make less power than American Supras. It's 276 flywheel.

If the STi is just barely matching the Evo now what about when the RS comes out in a few monthes? Or God forbid they should sell the VQ330 in the states?

Oh what if what if what if. Ever heard of an S202 or a Spec C or a 22B?

Plus the Evo is just as fast (if not faster) for a whole lot less money.

The extra stuff the STi has over the EVO is the worlds greatest bargain for the small price increase.

[MB38]

Aye. Gentlemen, just deal with it. Deciding which car is better when they're so close simply comes down to which each person likes more. If I had 30,000 to spend on a car, which would I get? Neither, I'd buy an old NA Supra and do a swap. When the cars are *essentially* equal performers here, nobody's ever going to give in to the other guy. It's not like after all of this arguing, somebody's gonna go "oh, you were right all along. I like the (STi/EVO) more now." Aye!

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by ldelaysionl

No it doesn't, Japanese Supras just make less power than American Supras. It's 276 flywheel.



Oh what if what if what if. Ever heard of an S202 or a Spec C or a 22B?



The extra stuff the STi has over the EVO is the worlds greatest bargain for the small price increase.

OK tell you what look up the boost pressure and redline of the 2JZ-GTE engine and then tell me that the japanese version makes less power, if anything it would make more due to the reduced emmisions standards in japan at the time. (less backpressure) What next are you going to tell me that air in japan does not burn as much? Have you ever noticed that the Jspec cars are always faster? Yes I do know about the other versions that Subie makes and they are impressive, but unless they bring them over they still might loose to the Evo. What "extra stuff" is worth the extra 4 grand? (other than the variable center diff)

[LjasonL]

OK tell you what look up the boost pressure and redline of the 2JZ-GTE engine and then tell me that the japanese version makes less power, if anything it would make more due to the reduced emmisions standards in japan at the time. (less backpressure

You realize that has nothing to do with it, right? It's an artificial limit.

Originally Posted by Jared_80

Have you ever noticed that the Jspec cars are always faster?

So is that your whole argument? "JDM cars are always faster"? The USDM 3000gt is faster than the JDM version too. As is the USDM 300zx. Even the USDM STi.

Ah yes, the gentlemen's agreement. Officially, no production car in Japan is supposed to be listed with more than 280 horsepower at the flywheel.

The JDM MKIV Supra TT was spec'ed at 280 hp. And it seems that it was actually limited to that. The U.S. Supra went 13.3 in the 1.4 mile, while the Japanese Supra came in at 14 flat, 7/10s of a second slower!

Nowhere in the world do they claim hp at the wheels for manufacturer rating, it's always at the flywheel. It would be downright stupid of them not to. 90% of the car buying population have no idea what the defference even is, they just think the biggest number is always better. So manufacturers always rate at the flywheel because it's a bigger number.

What "extra stuff" is worth the extra 4 grand? (other than the variable center diff)

6 speed, adjustable center diff, suretrac front lsd, mechanical rear lsd, half a liter of displacement, more compliant suspension... for starters. Try adding just the LSD's alone to an EVO for less than $4,000. Yes the EVO is cheaper, there's a reason for that...

[mycivic]

Originally Posted by ldelaysionl

Nowhere in the world do they claim hp at the wheels for manufacturer rating, it's always at the flywheel. It would be downright stupid of them not to. 90% of the car buying population have no idea what the defference even is, they just think the biggest number is always better. So manufacturers always rate at the flywheel because it's a bigger number.

noob question off the topic...why is it always bigger at the flywheel? is there any case wherein the hp is bigger at the wheels?

[MB38]

No. The flywheel rating is the power rating coming out of the engine. Power is lost going through the transmission, which leads to a lower number that actually makes it to the wheels.

[mycivic]

Originally Posted by MB38

No. The flywheel rating is the power rating coming out of the engine. Power is lost going through the transmission, which leads to a lower number that actually makes it to the wheels.

hmmmmm...i never thought of it that way. it does make sense now. thanks for the info.

[LjasonL]

Originally Posted by MB38

Aye. Gentlemen, just deal with it. Deciding which car is better when they're so close simply comes down to which each person likes more. If I had 30,000 to spend on a car, which would I get? Neither, I'd buy an old NA Supra and do a swap. When the cars are *essentially* equal performers here, nobody's ever going to give in to the other guy. It's not like after all of this arguing, somebody's gonna go "oh, you were right all along. I like the (STi/EVO) more now." Aye!

I agree completely, it all comes down to personal choice. Being a few tenths faster in an instrumented test matters very little under normal conditions. And if I had $30,000, I'd pay off my car and buy a K1 Attack

[Jared_80]

6 speed, adjustable center diff, suretrac front lsd, mechanical rear lsd, half a liter of displacement, more compliant suspension... for starters. Try adding just the LSD's alone to an EVO for less than $4,000. Yes the EVO is cheaper, there's a reason for that...[/QUOTE/]


WTH "more comliant suspention" then why does the Evo corner faster? Why does the Evo slolom faster? Why does the respond faster? And for your information the Evo comes with an LSD STOCK!!! The new cheaper, faster RS will have front and rear LDSs stock for about 26k. And please notice that I said "except for the center diff." Try reading somtime before you anwser. Oh yea and what good does that 6 speed do you if you are still slower than the Evo. I know on paper it lookes like the STi should be faster but the truth remains that it is not.

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by MB38

Aye. Gentlemen, just deal with it. Deciding which car is better when they're so close simply comes down to which each person likes more. If I had 30,000 to spend on a car, which would I get? Neither, I'd buy an old NA Supra and do a swap. When the cars are *essentially* equal performers here, nobody's ever going to give in to the other guy. It's not like after all of this arguing, somebody's gonna go "oh, you were right all along. I like the (STi/EVO) more now." Aye!

You are right about one thing the proformance is very close, but consider this.

The 4G-63 motor has been around for a long time and has proven itself to be a true proformance engine unlike the EJ 25 or whatever they call it. (Yes I already know that they derived it from the 22Bs engine but it still has different internals) So there is already a well reserched aftermarket for the Evo.

The Evo does have the slight proformance advantage to start with so tuning is easier.

The Evo in my humble opinion looks a little more like a sportscar.

The new RS is coming out soon so you wont have to play around with a heatgun to scrape 40lbs of tar (sound insolation) out of your car. Plus it comes with two limited slips for less money.

At any rate all that I am saying is that subi is not living up to their promise to beat the Evo.

[MB38]

Don't get me wrong Jared, I completely agree with the evo sentiments. The fact that it does more with less alone is reason enough in my book. And the 13 year old engine design? I'll trust it a whole lot more than these new-fangled EJ25s.

But nonetheless, nobody's going to give anybody anything here. It's the equivalent of a Mac vs. PC argument as I've stated in the past. Let me elaborate. No matter how many facts that a Mac user were to present to the PC user about ANYTHING, they would eventually retort with something along the lines of "whatever, Macs suck, PCs rule!" Thus, the discussion would end. No matter how much evidence STi lovers or EVO lovers present, the other side will eventually return fire with a worthless retort that will void the entire discussion. Nobody's going to concede to anybody.

[Jared_80]

I know but it is fun anyway. I do this all the time because I learn alot. And hopefully sombody from subi might come across this forum and see that some of us know that the Evo is faster and we want the STi to beat it.

[LjasonL]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

WTH "more comliant suspention" then why does the Evo corner faster? Why does the Evo slolom faster? Why does the respond faster?

compliant

\Com*pli"ant\, a. Yielding; bending; pliant; submissive.

It has nothing to do with how fast it can corner It means it's easier to live with on a daily basis

And for your information the Evo comes with an LSD STOCK!!! The new cheaper, faster RS will have front and rear LDSs stock for about 26k. And please notice that I said "except for the center diff." Try reading somtime before you anwser.

You try reading sometime, the EVO comes with a viscous rear LSD, I said the STi comes with a mechanical rear LSD. Do you know the difference?

Oh yea and what good does that 6 speed do you if you are still slower than the Evo.

Flexibility

I know on paper it lookes like the STi should be faster but the truth remains that it is not.

No... the "truth remains" that they are equal. Why can't you get this through your head? You keep saying the EVO is faster in the slalom and skidpad, do you realize how little that has to do with real performance? The STi has a more advanced drivetrain, the EVO counters by stickier tires and more aggressive suspension. The EVO is an excellent buy if you can get one for the $26-ish they're supposed to cost. The STi costs more, but it brings more to the table. Adding stickier tires and a more aggressive suspension to the STi to cancel the EVO's advantage is an EASY upgrade, while adding an EVO 7 drivetrain (to equal what the STi has) is quite costly.

[MB38]

I think everybody should just get emotional about it and fight.