God's Will

[Heep]

OK, I'm a little late getting into this one, so I'll comment on several different posts here.

Most people already know I'm a Bible beleiving Christian...but if you didn't you know now. Just stating my viewpoint .

I believe that praying about red lights and parking spaces is absolutely ridiculous. Praying should be used seriously, such as praying for someone to be healed. Also, if you pray, that doesn't automatically mean God will say yes. Examples:

You pray that you hit the green. God says no and makes that little old slow moving lady in front of you hold you up and you hit the red. He did that because some drunk flew through his red and would've hit you if you hadn't been slowed down.

You pray that one will be cured of cancer. God says no and they die. Because of their death, friends and relatives start to question where they'll go when the die and all get saved.

Igor, no, people a thousand years ago didn't know why tornados happened. Now we know, and it is wind patterns or whatever and not just a random act of God. That doesn't mean that the use of God as an explanation is discarded. I won't get into this, since this discussion belongs elsewhere, but I believe God created the wind patterns and knew 6000 years ago that a tornado would hit Bob's house in KC.

I see church as a way for people with the same beliefs to meet and fellowship with each other. It's also a sort of "school", always educating people about the Bible and God. To say that church is required for belief in God is completely faulty. The church is the people, not a ritualistic place that's a requirement for belief in God. I also do not believe that it should be dictative. The church should be a democracy, and a gathering place of people with similar beliefs. That is where different denomonations (baptist, catholic, pentecostal, etc.) come into play. If you have baptist beliefs, you join and help form a baptist church, same with the others. I don't think the church should be like the 17th century churches that were basically dictating political places that forced people to conform to the beliefs of the one priest or other leader. I'm rambling now, so I'm gonna switch topics...

Absolutely no human knows God's will. I don't. My pastor doesn't. The pope doesn't. That's why I think it's absurd when people say that different things just aren't in God's will. Of course, you can say this after something happened. Ex: Bob dies. You say, "I guess it wasn't in God's will that he live." That's fine. OR: Bob has cancer. You say, "It's God's will that he will live." This isn't fine...if Bob dies, you just made a fool of yourself and God.

Also, people that say that we shouldn't genetically alter babies for various reasons because "it's messing with God's will" are also absurd (no offense to those that believe this). I think it's wrong if you obsess about it and try to create a perfect being, but removing the gene that gives someone cancer is fine. Extremists say "You're messing with God's will, because that person could get cancer." But this is unsupported. What if it was God's will that I came along and removed the gene, not that the guy would get cancer?

If you believe in God, it makes sense that you should believe that everything that happens is God's will. Saying
"God had a different plan for you" makes no sense. If God is all powerful, and he had a different plan, he would have carried out that plan. It's God's will that the last word in this sentence is "that."

Know what I mean???

[igor@af]

sure i do!

But why do you think God exists?
What's his role?
If everything is God's will then why do you spend so much time praying? and thinking about God? It's God's will anyway.

[Heep]

To be honest, I don't really know why I believe in God. Probly same reason why you believe in evolution. The idea of God just makes sense to me, and maybe He is even just a scapegoat for me to explain things I don't understand. But I know I've felt His workings in my life, and seen them in others as well.

As far as praying goes, I think it's mostly just a way of building our faith and confidence in God, and can help relieve stress over a sticky situation.

[MBTN]

If no humans know "gods" will, then how does any human know "god" exists?

Has any type of praying ever accomplished anything?

[Bean Bandit]

Well I think the point is we can't proof that God exist but neither that he doesn't. There are some much things we can't explain but we anyway believe that they exist. And God is not only an explanation for things we can't explain there are so many people with a weak personality and they sometimes find hope and power in the belife in God. Finaly if he exist or not the belif he could exist helpd a lot of people.
Still I have to say I belive in beliving in God but not in Church, cause the church is something built by humans who payed a lot of attention while they had economy class
:bandit:

[Adam]

I AM NOT SAYING THAT A BELIEVER CAN JUST KILL ANYONE HE WANTS!

1. if a believer killed someone, he probably isn't a believer in the first place
2. if a killer kills someone, he IS ABLE TO believe in Christ and his sins will be pardoned, but that does NOT mean that on earth he should not be punished. I think he should be punished


--lightning on earth does not mean that God is angry!
--bad things that happen to ppl does not mean that God is angry!

I believe that whether you are a believer or not, your sins are inexcusable, but thankfully we have a forgiving God

[MBTN]

How do we know "god" is forgiving? When I tell a lie, I do not ask for forgiveness. Nothings happens to me either.

[Adam]

if i tell a lie, I do not ask for forgiveness either. :angel:

maybe i should, but God does not 'strike' anyone dead in his anger or anything.... maybe He did sometimes in Bible times, but if you kill someone, that does not mean that God is going to 'strike' you dead.

Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. He was our forgiveness, redemption, etc.

[i_rebel]

Somebody said that people pray to/believe in God because they can feel theat they are not responsible for the things that happen to them in their lives . . .

I agree . . . let me expand the idea . . .

I always use a fairlly simple analogy to explain my stand on this topic . . . by using this analogy I have helped many people to understand my views . . . by using this same analogy I have lost many friends . . . anyway . . .

People praying DO NOT have any evidence that their prayers are answered. I have come to the realization that a person who believes enough in a supreme being to send a heartfelt prayer to said being . . . is so unstable that regardless of the outcome, they will assume/believe it is God's will.

If the same person were told that telephone poles were "gods" . . . they would pray to telephone poles. In the event that one of those prayers coincided with a later incident in that person favor . . . does that mean that the telephone pole "answered" the prayer. Don't be ridiculous . . .

The belief in a god, any god, plays into the mentality of certain types of people. The same type of people who won't go bowling without their lucky boxer shorts on or at least in their pockets (hahahaaaa) . . .

The natural thing to do once praying, is to act in accordance to what the prayer was meant to accomplish. ie: If I want to find Energy Suspension motor mounts for my '93 G20 . . . the natural thing to do is to look for the mounts. A person who believes in God . . . will first pray, then look for the mounts. Upon finding the mounts, or having them fabricated, the sad fact is that these weak individuals, thank a being whose existence is uncertain, before giving themselves a pat on the back . . .

How absurd can it get . . .

I am king of my destiny . . . or the destroyer of the same . . .

Stevie B
'93 G20 :sun:

[Heep]

Praying only works if you believe in God as an omnipotent being. I agree that one should perform actions that coincide with the request. If I pray that Bob will get healed from cancer, and don't do anything about it, I'm a fool. But if I pray that God will heal Bob, if it's in His will, then I should go about treating Bob. But if the treatment is 50% effective, it could go either way. That is where belief in God comes in. If Bob is healed, it is because of the reactions to the treatment. But it's also answer to prayer. But it's also an answer to prayer if Bob dies, just not the answer I wanted.

See the only problem with your analogy is that we don't believe in God because of prayer, we believe in prayer because of God. An answered prayer by no means proves God's existence, and it cannot and should not be used by Christians as an explanation or proof of God's existence. Prayer is more symbolic than anything...God wants us to pray, but more as a way for us to help place our faith in God.

This is probly confusing. But basically, believing in the telephone pole because by coincidence it fell over on May 3rd, 10:04 AM, just like we prayed it would is ridiculous. While quite a coincidence, that is all it is, it doesn't prove that it heard our prayer. You have to believe that the telephone pole can hear and answer your prayer before you pray, or else it is pointless.

[i_rebel]

Alrighty then . . .

You have to believe that the telephone pole can hear and answer your prayer before you pray, or else it is pointless.

That's all it takes? So the stimulus for the outcome desired, even the very REALITY we are discussing (that is what I'm heading for here), according to YOU is dependent upon the state of mind of the person involved . . . and that makes all the difference . . .

I agree 100%, and that is precisely my point!

What you have said here is that by believing that a prayer will work, I have affected the the potency of said prayer . . .

If I believe that my G20 can schitt polyurethane motor mounts out of the tailpipe . . . and then I pray to my G20 tonight when I go home . . . lol . . .

whatever man . . .

[Heep]

No, no, no, no, no.....

Of course the outcome of the prayer will not be affected by the persons state of mind...that can't physically happen. What I'm saying is that prayer cannot (or should not) make someone believe in what or who they are praying to...they should pray to what or who they believe in. You can pray to a floor tile that Bob will get healed from his cancer. If he is, you wouldn't believe that the floor tile has supernatural powers. If I don't pray, and I treat Bob for cancer, he gets healed. If I do pray, and I treat Bob for cancer, he gets healed. If I do or don't pray, but leave Bob untreated, he will die. Prayer has no supernatural power, God does. Prayer is just a way of helping us to realize that God is powerful, if you believe in Him.

BTW: If you honestly believed that your tailpipe could shoot out mounts, then go for it. But you don't believe that, so don't pray.

[i_rebel]

Prayer has no supernatural power, God does. Prayer is just a way of helping us to realize that God is powerful, if you believe in Him.

. . . Prayer is just a way of helping us to realize that God is powerful . . .

. . . So why pray for desired outcomes to certain situations?

. . . Since God is powerful, why must one PRAY in order to realize it . . .

. . . Since God is powerful, and prayer is just a means for us to realize said power . . . why can you not depend on God to demonstrate his power through the outcomes of your prayers . . . ?


hunh?

[Heep]

Originally posted by i_rebel


. . . Prayer is just a way of helping us to realize that God is powerful . . .

. . . So why pray for desired outcomes to certain situations?

. . . Since God is powerful, why must one PRAY in order to realize it . . .

. . . Since God is powerful, and prayer is just a means for us to realize said power . . . why can you not depend on God to demonstrate his power through the outcomes of your prayers . . . ?


hunh?

Techinically, we don't HAVE to pray. It's also an example to others, so that they may inquire as to why we believe in God, and that is a perfect opportunity to share our thoughts. God also said in the Bible "You recieve not because you did not ask." God likes us to pray as a sort of dependance. If I pray that Bob will get better, He may make Bob get better. While this can possibly be explained scientifically, it's also a demonstration of His power.

I dunno, it's really really hard to explain to someone that doesn't believe, because they don't believe God exists. Therefore, they see prayer as useless, and they won't change their minds until they change their mind about God.

Please try to keep calm and respect others views...these are discussion forums, not arguing forums...we've had people complain about heated arguments before. We also decided a while ago that nobody is ever going to change anybody else's mind, so there's no point trying. I'm just explaining why I believe what I believe. Anyway, I'm saying all this because I thought you were starting to get heated...if I was wrong, I apologize.

[i_rebel]

In other words, prayer has two purposes . . . at least in your opinion . . .

1) To serve as an outward demonstration to others.

2) To prove to God that you are dependant on him.


Picture that seriously. Picture your children . . . one of them very hungry, because for some reason he can't bring himself to make a sandwich for some reason. Would you expect that child to continually beg you to help him eat (you are his primary care giver), just to show his brothers and sisters that he depends on you? Or, even if the circumstance were not so dire, would you being a kind, loving parent, expect your children to continually call out to you, to continually recognize that you are their parent/authority figure/care-giver?

If this "god" exists, and is a kind, loving, caring, even WISE god . . . then why would this expectation be placed upon us . . . mere men? Why would we be expected to continually demonstrate our dependence . . . and to what end?

I see people who demonstrate their dependence on a daily basis . . . all day, in fact! Yet they are all in the same circumstances as their counterparts. You have your belief in God, and your dependence upon him . . . tell me how does it benefit you?

Further, tell me why your God expects such trivialities? If it does not benefit you, how does it benefit him?

And in reference to your comment:

I thought you were starting to get heated...

how can I be getting heated? don't you see which way this thing is pointed? :flamer: . . . lol . . .


Stevie B
'93 G20