Excessive Oil Consumption '00 Windstar

[danielsatur]

Don't get me wrong!

The idea ''In The car valve stem seal replacement'' is good, you don't need to buy head gaskets, and head bolts.

I like to profile the Age, mileage, condition, befor throwing too much money at.

There was one dude who spent $3.5k for a 50cent freeze plug on a jaguar.

I found a video, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouxbxE-BMNY

[wiswind]

I would use a Motorcraft PCV valve.
Some aftermarket PCV valves permit too much flow, and the OEM will be more precise.
Even at full dealer retail, a PCV valve is not expensive.

HOWEVER, I do not think that a aftermarket PCV valve would cause this much consumption.
My '96 3.8L used very little oil at over 229K miles on it, with original valve seals, etc.
Only thing I had done that might impact oil consumption was the lower intake manifold gaskets due to a very slight coolant leak.

I have not seen a lot of posts about valve stem seals or piston rings giving problems in the 3.8L windstar, but it can happen.

I have seen a couple of posts about valve springs breaking, so that would be one thing that I would check.

Also, the cylinders that had the carboned up spark plugs could well point to where the problem is.
If the spark plug is carboned up, maybe those cylinders have a lot of carbon build up in them as well?
Or possible coil pack issue causing a very intermittent lack of spark?.....not enough to trigger the CEL?

I am guessing that you did not put the fancy multi-prong spark plugs in that they display at the auto part stores.
I would stick with the Double Platinum plugs that are OEM specified, under the Motorcraft or Autolite brand.

If you pull the valve covers, I would replace the valve cover gaskets using the Felpro rubber-type gaskets.
The Rock Auto website has quality parts at good prices.
For the rear valve cover use care to avoid "rolling" the valve cover gasket out of place when installing the valve cover.
Of course, the rear valve cover is BEST accessed with the windshield wiper cowl removed.

[mark_gober]

Well, in preparation for the upcoming freezing weather (and to take advantage of the nice weather we had today), I decided to tackle some of my valve stem seals. Due to time constraints, I decided to tackle the front bank first. Removing the valve cover gaskets was easy.

I decided on the manual method for bringing each cylinder to TDC. I inserted a ratchet extension into the spark plug hole and gently rotated the engine until it lightly made contact with the extension. That is plenty high enough for the valve not to drop into the cylinder. I then just used the rented valve spring compressor to release the tension on the springs and remove the keepers. (NOTE 1: To make the job MUCH easier, I used a very strong but small rare earth magnet that I pilfered from a damaged hard drive.) Pressing down on the spring compressor and placing the magnet near the top of the valve stem cause the valve to lift up and the lifters popped right off on most of the valve stems. Of the 6 on the front, I only had one valve that tried to be difficult. On that one, i just wiggled the valve compressor up front to back (vehicle wise) and the valve finally broke it's suction and released.

I worked one cylinder at a time and each cylinder took me about 45 minutes. Installing the new valve stem seals was easy on some, and a tight fit on others. You have to press them down onto the valve guides all the way. I usually just pressed hard with my hand, but on one of them, I couldn't push it down far enough. On that one, i took a 7/8 socket and hammer and lightly tapped the valve stem seal into place. Worked like a champ.

I'll give you a few of the tips I learned doing the front. On the valve spring compressor tool that I borrowed from AutoZone, the legs that grab the lower part of the spring are fairly thick. When removing the valve spring, I foung that I could only get a decent grab by going about 4 turns down the spring and compressing that. In order to remove the keepers, I had to utilize some downward pressure on the spring and the magnet. When I reinstalled, I reset my compressor and got as big of a grab as I could. This enabled me to compress nearly the entire spring. (I was about 1 1/2 turns off the bottom)

The front bank took me about 2.5 hours start to finish. That was getting the learning curve and all. Hopefully the rear one can wait until the weather warms up a bit. I'd like to at least see a reduction in oil consumption. I'll post pictures that I took later. For now, I'm going to finish my celebratory drink and go to sleep. (I do the work, I decide the reward)

Mark

[JDZDEG]

Hey Wiswind,

Would the lower intake manifold gaskets leaking cause oil to be able to get into the engine coolant reservoir? I have been losing oil also
(just like Mark Gober described) in my 2000 Windstar. I did the ISO bolts replacement a year ago and put in a new Motorcraft PCV assembly, but I modified the valve cover baffle instead of replacing it. Should I have replaced it with the new updated valve cover too? I even put an inline separator in the PCV line to catch oil and it does catch some but I think some still gets by it to the intake. Can someone give me some advice on what I need to do to correct this problem?

[12Ounce]

Originally Posted by JDZDEG

Hey Wiswind,

....... but I think some (oil) still gets by it to the intake..... on what I need to do to correct this problem?

I'm not Wiswind, forgive my hi-jacking. But what is wrong with oil getting into the intake? .... that's the whole idea behind the PCV system ... piston blow-by and oil mist from the crankcase is directed into the engine intake and burned.

The enviromental guys were tired of engines blowing oil down on the highways and then it being carried off by rainwater into the soil. Thus the PCV systems. My '99 has over 300k miles on it ... sucking oil into the intake all along the way. Just like all my other cars. So what is "this problem"?

I bought the updated valve cover ... but not sure it has had much impact.

[JDZDEG]

12 ounce,

I really don't care if the oil gets into the intake my concern I have is I am losing oil somewhere(about a quart every 1000 miles) and I have seen oil in my coolant reservoir. What do I need to do to remedy this problem? Is it the lower intake gaskets or what is causing the oil to get into the reservoir and my loss of oil?

[mark_gober]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

I'm not Wiswind, forgive my hi-jacking. But what is wrong with oil getting into the intake? .... that's the whole idea behind the PCV system ... piston blow-by and oil mist from the crankcase is directed into the engine intake and burned.

The enviromental guys were tired of engines blowing oil down on the highways and then it being carried off by rainwater into the soil. Thus the PCV systems. My '99 has over 300k miles on it ... sucking oil into the intake all along the way. Just like all my other cars. So what is "this problem"?

I bought the updated valve cover ... but not sure it has had much impact.

The reason for PCV valves is not to suck in oil. It's to suck in unburned fuel that happened to find itself in the valve cover. Now, because oil exists in the valve cover, you will get a very small amount of oil that travels with the vapor. The oil is most likely in vapor form itself.

Our problem (or at least mine) is that I was burning an exorbitant amount of oil. I've replaced the front 6 valve stem seals. I still haven't gotten around to the rear six, but hopefully I will now that the weather has improved. I need to check my oil this weekend to check to see if the front 6 has made a difference.

Mark

[12Ounce]

Originally Posted by mark_gober

....The reason for PCV valves is not to suck in oil. It's to suck in unburned fuel .....

Mark

Well, I maintain that both blow-by gasses and oil was the concern:

"From 1928 until the early 1960s, car and truck petrol engines vented combustion gases directly to the atmosphere through a simple vent tube. Frequently, this consisted of a pipe (the road draft tube) that extended out from the crankcase down to the bottom of the engine compartment. The bottom of the pipe was open to the atmosphere, and was placed such that when the car was in motion a slight vacuum was obtained, helping to extract combustion gases as they collected in the crankcase. The vacuum was satisfied by a vent, typically in the valve or valley cover, creating a constant flow of clean air through the engine's air volume. The oil mist would also be discharged, resulting in an oily film being deposited in the middle of each travel lane on heavily-used roads. The system was not positive though, as gases could travel both ways, or not move at all, depending on conditions. (Most modern diesel engines still use this type of system to dispose of crankcase fumes.)"

Per Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankca...ilation_system

[JDZDEG]

I'm not necessary concerned about the oil being pulled over by the PCV into the intake because I know it is going to do that. My issue like Mark's is I am losing a quart of oil every 1000-1500 miles between oil changes. Also, it looks like I have a brown oily tint in my coolant reservoir that looks like oil. Normally, one would see that when transmission fluid leaks over into the coolant through the radiator but it doesn't look like or smell like transmission fluid it looks and smells like fuel vapor and oil. I'm just trying to find out what I need to do to fix these problems not stop the PCV from pulling out oil from the valve cover.

[mark_gober]

Originally Posted by JDZDEG

I'm not necessary concerned about the oil being pulled over by the PCV into the intake because I know it is going to do that. My issue like Mark's is I am losing a quart of oil every 1000-1500 miles between oil changes. Also, it looks like I have a brown oily tint in my coolant reservoir that looks like oil. Normally, one would see that when transmission fluid leaks over into the coolant through the radiator but it doesn't look like or smell like transmission fluid it looks and smells like fuel vapor and oil. I'm just trying to find out what I need to do to fix these problems not stop the PCV from pulling out oil from the valve cover.

I'd replace your antifreeze with nice fresh green stuff and see if it gets brown again. I've seen several Ford's that get that brown tint in the reservoir that don't have blown head gaskets. In about two more weeks, I'm going to change out the other 6 of my valve stem seals. I'm going to check my oil level this weekend and see if the front six slowed the oil leak down at all. I'll post my results.

Mark

[12Ounce]

On the 3.8, the front cover gasket, the lower intake gasket as well as the head gasket are "opportunities" for cross-talk between coolant and engine oil. I had trouble with a leaky lower intake gasket on the rebuild that I did. So I replaced the gasket again, never seeing the actual leak on the leaky gasket ... it looked sound all over.

To lessen the chances of coolant getting into the oil, I leave the reservoir cap a turn or so loose. Takes a bit of watch to keep up with the coolant ... but it keeps high pressure coolant from moving into the oil ... if there is a leak.

[wiswind]

Oil into the coolant, while it can happen, is not so common.
There are a limited number of opportunities for this to happen, as oil at that point would need to be at a higher pressure than the coolant.
I guess that could be when the motor is cool.
Another "oil" type product that could get into the coolant would be ATF, but....again, the ATF flowing through the cooler that is inside the radiator side tank (below the fill cap) is not under any real pressure.....so I would expect coolant into the ATF before the other way around.

PCV, valve stem seals or upper intake manifold gaskets don't seem to offer opportunity for oil INTO the coolant.
I have advised the use of Genuine Motorcraft PCV valves due to the fact that excessive oil being drawn into the intake is a KNOWN issue for the 1999 and newer Windstar.
The "improved" valve cover had an improvement made to the baffel that is over the PCV valve hole to REDUCE the amound of oil that gets drawn into the intake.....
There will STILL be some......and pretty much MUST be in order to have the minimum required flow of contaminated air out of the crankcase.
They need to get the combustion by products out......mosture.....and unburned fuel......that DO (hopefully in small amounts) end up in the crankcase.
There will be a certain amount of VAPORIZED oil in that air that will condense out before it makes it all the way into the cylinders to be burned off.
TOO much oil not only makes a mess.....it causes excessive carbon buildup inside the cyinders.....which has the effect of increasing compression.
Higher compression requires higher octane fuel or retarded ignition timing to avoid pre-ignition......"pinging".
While PCV systems may have reduced polution, they have also increased the life of motor oil and reduced sludge buildup inside the crankcase.

As to the problem of oil in the overflow tank.......of course the first questions I ask of someone who reports the brown sludge in the overflow tank is if they have used a stop-leak product or a product like Redline "water wetter" as these can cause this very symptom.
In the case of the water wetter, it has a anticorrrosion additive....since it is designed to be used in water only systems, and this additive can separate in cold coolant.
Once the coolant warms back up.....it re-mixes, however......it can leave a scum inside the overflow tank.

If one suspects oil in the coolant.....I would be MORE concerned about the possibility of coolant in the oil, which will cause serious ($$$$) damage to the bearings inside the motor.
For this reason, a oil sample should be tested to determine if coolant is present in the oil.
Blackstone Labs will send you a kit for taking a oil sample and mailing it in for testing.
Of course.....if you are using a quart of oil........INTO the cooling system.....you will have more than a deposit in the overflow bottle......you will see a MAJOR increase in the overall level in the cooling system.

[mark_gober]

Good news on the oil consumption front. I checked my oil level over the weekend and the oil level was still well within the hashed marks. It is still slightly losing oil, but not nearly at the rate it was. (Again, I've only changed the valve stem seals on the front 3 cylinders...I will do the back three soon). I appears that the valve stem seals are, in fact, whats causing my oil consumption woes. I just thought I'd pass it along. I know there have several people who are experiencing similar problems.

Mark

[JDZDEG]

Good news! I found out where the oil crossover is coming from. Took off the lower intake and there it was. The back gasket towards the fire wall towards the passenger side of van was leaking causing the issue. 12 ounce and Wiswind thanks for the advice and help on finding the culprit. Now, I just have to clean up the engine and repair it. Also, going to change the bypass tube on top of lower intake, thermostat and the sparkplugs.

Have one question: Replacing the plugs with Motorcraft plugs the dealer says the engine calls for which are SP486 or AGSF42FM. According to Advance Auto's web site these are single platinum plugs, but I have read on the forum where everyone says use double platinum plugs. What is the part number for the Motorcraft double platinum plugs for Windstar vans or are the SP486 plugs double platinum?

Lastly, what is the best way to get the oil residue out of the coolant system? What type antifreeze should I use?

Thanks

[Mark350Z]

mark_gober,

I have been reviewing your original Jan 2011 question, and the follow-on posts. My 2001 Windstar has similar symptoms to yours. I have purchased the valve seals, and am preparing to replace the old seals this weekend. The forward cylinder bank looks straightforward access-wise, but I was wondering if you ever completed the rear bank, and have any tips for that.

I have removed the windshield cowling before, and plan to do so again. Any insight or tips you can provide would be appreciated.

Thank you