My 1000th post----- The whereabouts of GTR 04R?

[Le Man]

How,s this for a theory, to add some more fizz to the mix .

10R was available for use in the Mine JGTC race!!

The Lark GTR in the book and owned by McLaren, is most probably 14R. I can only see Ron owning championship and LeMan winning GTR,s ie:- 01R and 20R. Although we have not seen this cars chassis plate, its to full 96 spec, even down to its lighter spec wiring loom, as can be seen by the position of the ECU on the cabin bulkhead. 95 cars had the ECU lower down in the passenger seat area.

Anyone have any detailed cabin pics of GTR M66 MCL?

I agree with DocGTR,s observation that the replacement GTR at Milne was in full 96 spec.

One thing to bare in mind though, if 04R,s tub was repaired it would have been stripped bare and sent back to Shalford. The process of repair, would have seen the damaged sections deskinned from the tub and then rebuilt to as good as new. If this was the case, then this tub (04R) may have been replated and used to build another GTR. 09R perhaps?? the timeline would suggest this may have been possible. We all know 27R and 28R had their plates changed at birth.

Your thoughts guys .

[DocGTR]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

Certainly it appears to me from all the evidence presented here so far that it must have been #04R that stood in for #14R in that last race, making that strange entry on the Chassis History poster surprisingly correct! In fact this is the first time in a long time I've had this much confidence in that little notation.

Also for me it seems more and more obvious the #61 presented in the book is 04R as all of the details it has/wears hints to the Mine racer, in a condition just after the race but only cleaned. It would have been possible to bring all those details somehow back to a repaired 14R, but something tells me that it wouldn't have been the way McLaren would have done it, just compare it to the cases of 01R and 20R. 01R is in a condition like just after LM'95 victory, only cleaned and the original steering wheel auctioned off. 20R is in a condition like after FIA GT 1997 season (aero/exteriors) but LM'97 decals put back on. In both cases it is The Chassis that brought the end result. 04R brought the championship with the 4th place in the last race, as the 13R took the victory at Mine and almost snatched the championship (Nielsen/Brabham both 63p, Schumacher/Hattori both 60p). Three places further back and the result would have been 59p/60p.

I assume that LOJ/GTC sold 04R chassis back to the factory to get the 08R to continue racing straight on. 04R was not then needed for racing that year but it may have been such spare that they repaired the chassis part and had it in a state that it was easier to repair for racing when needed. Also in the end of 1995 they could have used it to test how to upgrade a GTR'95 to GTR'96 if any of the customers would need it for their vehicles (later 03R and 06R!). And so it (04R) was in the condition in October 1996 that in just 3 weeks after 14R crash at Sugo (6th Oct) it was ready to stand in at Mine (27th Oct) in full race specs for JGTC'96 and in full LARK-livery. And after that race and championship victory McLaren just stored it in their garage. Ok, just an assumption, but as Erik pointed out, all the evidence is hinting towards such conclusions, still keeping all the sense, logic and possibilities in mind.

[DocGTR]

Originally Posted by Le Man

10R was available for use in the Mine JGTC race!!

I highly doubt that option. Nick Mason would have told that in his "Into the Red" book as he goes there to much of the details of the 10R's testing records. I can't believe he would have left such out.

Originally Posted by Le Man

The Lark GTR in the book and owned by McLaren, is most probably 14R. I can only see Ron owning championship and LeMan winning GTR,s ie:- 01R and 20R.

Why not then have 03R and 12R. At least 12R has been for sale so he could have bought it back.

Originally Posted by Le Man

Although we have not seen this cars chassis plate, its to full 96 spec, even down to its lighter spec wiring loom, as can be seen by the position of the ECU on the cabin bulkhead. 95 cars had the ECU lower down in the passenger seat area.

If what is told about the damages of 04R are true, it would have necessitated to strip it to quite much to the "bones" before starting the repairs, so after that it could have been built easily to '96 specs.

Originally Posted by Le Man

One thing to bare in mind though, if 04R,s tub was repaired it would have been stripped bare and sent back to Shalford. The process of repair, would have seen the damaged sections deskinned from the tub and then rebuilt to as good as new.

That must have been what happened with 24R as the cabin section was really badly damaged after Nielsen's shunt. The left A-pillar was cut in the accident.

Originally Posted by Le Man

If this was the case, then this tub (04R) may have been replated and used to build another GTR. 09R perhaps?? the timeline would suggest this may have been possible. We all know 27R and 28R had their plates changed at birth.

I would highly doubt that it was built to 09R. I've read it from so many different places that 09R was purpose built for the Sultan as McLaren did not sell the 01R. And in some test the driver (Sultan's own stuff) told the passenger (reporter?) that this (09R) performs better as the 01R as it is completely new as the 01R has many tests and 24H race on its "belt".

Any more ideas?

[Peloton25]

Originally Posted by Le Man

The Lark GTR in the book and owned by McLaren, is most probably 14R. I can only see Ron owning championship and LeMan winning GTR,s ie:- 01R and 20R. Although we have not seen this cars chassis plate, its to full 96 spec, even down to its lighter spec wiring loom, as can be seen by the position of the ECU on the cabin bulkhead. 95 cars had the ECU lower down in the passenger seat area.

I've only seen the three photos that are presented on the page I shared, and the one small one with the weight penalty stickers on the quarter window from the previous page. Where are you seeing this ECU placement of the car in the book?

Anyone have any detailed cabin pics of GTR M66 MCL?

No. Quite unfortunately this appears to be the only thing that could be considered an interior shot of that particular car. Not sure what you can gather from it but I am guessing 'not much'.



>8^)
ER

[hurstg01]

I have re-read the book after DocGTR linked to the thread and it does state in the appendix that the 1996 GTR used on that page is owned by Mclaren, but doesnt state the chassis number as being #14R - as it was assumed in that thread that it appeared to be #14R that's how I read it to be...

[DocGTR]

^^^ Thanks Greg for checking it out!

Has anyone else noticed the issue with the turn indicators of the #61 in the Cars 64-08 -book? Seems they're oddly in the order that was more typical for GTR'95s than '96 GTRs, so that the turn indicators are on the outer sides and clear part on the inside. I checked through my archives and noticed that in any of my 14R pictures they were assembled in that order and the hit from the Porsche didn't damage the front that much. Also all the other GTR'96 have had them so that the turn indicators are on the inside, only 18R have had them the other way, but lately seen in the more '96 order. Most of the '95 GTRs had them in the other order, turn indicators on the outerside, but it wasn't so regular or standard as on the '96 cars. The video clip still most likely show them on the #61 at Mine in the more '96 order (4:28 on the clip).

I can't say these prove anything, but got my eye on them as I was checking through the images more closely for the differences. I still hope we can find some better quality images of the #61 during the Mine race weekend.

[Peloton25]

For added turn singal orientation analysis from the final race at Mine you might also see the image in this post.

Also, in that thread some guy mentions:

Originally Posted by Le Man

04R :- I know where it is, but I am not at liberty to tell anyone. Sorry.

If that statement still holds true then I think we all might be being taken for a ride here.

One additional comment:

Originally Posted by carbuilder

I am so pleased that someone else can confirm that #04R is instorage somewhere, it confirms what I was told earlier this year but again the person who told me can not divulge it's whereabouts.

McLaren are known for keeping cars in storage.

>8^)
ER

[carbuilder2002]

I am not sure if I am about to muddy the waters further or open up another avenue, I was told some 3 years ago that 04R had been rebuilt with a new monocoque but never returned to the racetrack, therefore it is concievable that it was indeed the first GTR to be converted to road use following its total rebuild. Alead i had to it being in the North of England was a total red herring.

[DocGTR]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

For added turn singal orientation analysis from the final race at Mine you might also see the image in this post.

Yep, confirmed that what was on the video. Somehow I forgot that image, even though I've had it for some time but it was only in my folder for 13R.

So the car in those pictures of the book has had something else than just cleaning after its last race.

[hurstg01]

Any info you can glean from here? (not the best video....)

[Peloton25]

Originally Posted by carbuilder

I am not sure if I am about to muddy the waters further or open up another avenue, I was told some 3 years ago that 04R had been rebuilt with a new monocoque but never returned to the racetrack, therefore it is concievable that it was indeed the first GTR to be converted to road use following its total rebuild. A lead i had to it being in the North of England was a total red herring.

Which raises the other possibility that M66 MCL, despite looking quite a bit like a '96 GTR, could instead be #04R.

One thing that could help put that car's identity issue to rest is a registration search. Of course that would be too easy, and the plate 'M66 MCL' has never been searchable in the DVLA website (R66 MCL is). I wonder if by the time we started looking 'M66 MCL' had already been shifted to something else? I don't have time to go through every make from AC to Zhongyu here trying to figure that out though.

Sidebar discussion: How many GTRs have those little sill extensions on the luggage doors like the 'M66 MCL' car? With a quick scan of my references I can only see 10R, 11R, 16R and 18R having them today. It appears #13R, #14R, #15R and #17R never wore them at all.

Strangely I did find just one picture of #12R wearing them at Anderstorp which is pretty surprising because it seems that would have necessitated a door change as well. See for yourself:



Odd to do that for what appears to be just one race, and certainly no recent photos of #12R show them fitted.

>8^)
ER

[fmhc]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

It's just a piece of information that has revived the 14R -vs- 15R debate of the 'M66 MCL' orange GTR that was spotted in Monaco back in 2003. Can't expand on it in any great detail here yet or I would have already done so.
ER

As I think I'm the original source of this information, I will share here what I can.
I've seen (at least with another member here) 15R very recently.

Unfortunately I can't share where nor any photos but what I can say is:

-15R is in its Gulf livery of LM 1996 wearing its race number 34.
-15R doesn't seems road registered at all: no plates, only one racing seat with five point harness.
- Many details in the interior such as stickers with "pit lane speed limits", specific driver adjusments are still on the dashoard and suggest that the car was not returned to its LM96 configuration after a street legal conversion
- The body is different than "M66 MCL".

Just look at pictures of 15R at LM 1996 and you will see exactly how it is today

Thomas

[DocGTR]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

Sidebar discussion: How many GTRs have those little sill extensions on the luggage doors like the 'M66 MCL' car? With a quick scan of my references I can only see 10R, 11R, 16R and 18R having them today. It appears #13R, #14R, #15R and #17R never wore them at all.

17R had the in Le Mans 1996 in practice.



Also the images of the Anderstorp 1996 race shows that 12R had its regular side sills back on.

[Le Man]

WOW, This thread has sure sparked off some debate, all interesting comments, thanks guys .

It reminds me of the time when it took me ages to convince you guys that AMG Mercedes used 11R for their test mule, not 07R which everybody read in DA.

So the big problem here is that there are some 96 GTR,s that are confusing the issue, until their identities are confirmed, this will hold us back a little, in finding the whereabouts of 04R.

Some of you guys think a 95 monocoque has morphed into a 96 version, something which I find rather odd. read the Racecar Engineering article again, this may make some of you think otherwise .

My Quote, 04R :- I know where it is, but I am not at liberty to tell anyone. Sorry.

Sort of still stands, but what I will confirm is this.

Yes, 04R was rolled/destroyed at Jarama. (as I own some of the damaged parts/memorabilia)

The engine and gearbox are/where in 08R (two of three main parts of the car)

Its the only GTR that nobody has seen pics of since Monza 95.

I will get back to answering individual questions/thoughts when I have a bit more time, I did not expect to read a book, every time I come back onto the forum .

[DocGTR]

Originally Posted by carbuilder2002

I am not sure if I am about to muddy the waters further or open up another avenue, I was told some 3 years ago that 04R had been rebuilt with a new monocoque but never returned to the racetrack, therefore it is concievable that it was indeed the first GTR to be converted to road use following its total rebuild. Alead i had to it being in the North of England was a total red herring.

Originally Posted by Peloton25

Which raises the other possibility that M66 MCL, despite looking quite a bit like a '96 GTR, could instead be #04R.

if that M66 MCL would be the 04R and it wasn't the car that stood in for 14R in Mine, which car did it then? Something doesn't match here. The comment "never returned to the racetrack" could be e.g. from a person who knew its history till the end '95 or early '96 but perhaps then the 14R accident came as such a surprise that not many people knew that specifically which car was used to replace it. Ok, just speculation, but at least there were 2 Macs in the Mine race and not so many possible chassis for that #61 car as we have concluded. I think it's now more likely the question of which one, 04R or 14R, has been road converted and which one is in the LARK-livery.