Ignition Key problem

[tomj76]

On the point of how warrenty repair works at a GM dealership, I'd have agree with "j cAT".

Take my afforementioned experience with ignition key as an example. When I presented the dealership with the problem, they had two options... they could have presumed that the problem had to be with the cylinder (since even the GM issued key had not worked) or they could use the excuse that my aftermarket keys were causing the problem. Since the problem was intermittent, it was easy to argue for either one. They chose the later, they blamed my keys. In addition, they tried to charge me a fee for examining the vehicle, since they had determined it was not a warrenty repair. It was only after a very loud converstation at the service desk that the manager excused the fee. And because they couldn't reproduce the problem they refused to replace the lock cylinder under the warrenty to prevent me or my family from being stranded by a car that couldn't be started.

Several months later I took the cylinder out of the steering column to try to understand the cause of this (it had occured again). It didn't take long to understand the tab mechanism was hanging up. I'm not a certified mechanic, but I somehow was able to make a correct diagnosis of an intermittent problem where the GM certified tech was not. Go figure.

I had another experience with GM warrenty coverage many years prior that was similar, except in that case they first misdiagnosed the problem (which was with the computer) and replaced the temperature sender (for which I was charged). When I came to pick up the vehicle I did not even get it off the lot. Next they replaced the computer module under warrenty (which corrected the problem). They gave me a hard time when I told them to refund my money for the incorrect diagnosis.

To be fair, I've had the same type of treatment from my Ford dealership. I was not treated this way at my Honda dealership, mostly because that vehicle never needed repair while under warrenty.

[Tech II]

There are good doctors and bad ones....there are good lawyers and bad ones....there are good dealerships, and bad ones....

Worked for GM dealerships for many years, and I personally know they bend over backwards for their customers...

Now let me say this....If you pop into a dealership, for just recall or warranty repairs....they will do the work, free of charge......but, they are not going to fix something if it can't be recreated, or is not a known problem....

and when your car is out of warranty, don't come into that dealership demanding this and that, especially if you are not a steady customer....

If you are a steady customer, that comes into the dealership for regular maintenance, and that dealership has records on file confirming it, if you have a problem just out of warranty, I guarantee that SM will make every effort to back you up with GM on a repair or at least a break on the cost of the repair....they go out of their way, to help steady GM customers....but if you are someone who pops in to try and get something for nothing, it isn't going to happen....

I know customers, that always bought their cars from the same dealer, were treated one way, while those that didn't were treated differently....

It's the same with all dealerships, whether it's GM, Ford, Toyota, etc.

I have seen customers come into the dealership, and complain that their transmission has a problem, and they want it fixed for free, because a tranny shouldn't fail at 60K......it shouldn't....but the dealership has no record of this person ever bringing their car to this dealership, or any kind of maintenance record, and this customer wants the SM to go to bat for him? It's not going to happen....

If a customer ever has a problem, and the car is under warranty, and the dealership can't recreate the problem, then you should get a copy of the repair order.....if the car should have the same problem, and this happens just outside of your warranty, that previous repair order, can be used to get the repair fixed for free, even though out of warranty....

If you don't have a good relationship with a dealership, like any other repair business, they will look the other way...in your case there are TSB bulletins all over the place concerning tumbler problems causing intermittent problems with turning the ignition key.....it should have been repaired, if the car was still under the 3yr/36K warranty....if they didn't, and you were under warranty, then you should have called GM Customer Assistance......and like I said, if you had the copy of the repair oder stating they couldn't recreate the problem at the time, and then it finally happened, and was just out of warranty, they would have fixed it...

It's a dog eat dog world out there in the car repair business.....dealerships want your business....if you buy a car form any Dealer, be it Chrysler, Hyundai, Nissan, etc., go to them for your repairs and maintenance...it will pay off in the long run......

[j cAT]

I just do not trust the dealerships with any repairs. the reason is they will break parts to jack up the bill. GM dealerships are what I am talking about since this is my personal experience. also replacing the most expensive parts first then when it fails again they say well that part was bad . so how do you argue that one now its 2 parts failing at the same time or perhaps 6 parts till they finally guess which is the problem.

basically most of these dealership techs are newbies to the auto repair world. they just do what the service manager says and this is done to increase the managers kick back.
any service tech that has a high skill level will not work for a dealership.

I worked at a dealership for a time ,,customers get screwed because like was stated the customers are idiots most times , so it is an easy score.

If you use these forums and do some work to understand these vehicles , you can protect your self some what .

the lock cylinder being the issue with this post is a good example of how they troubleshoot .

[Tech II]

I worked for GM, and more often than not, they bent over backwards for their customers......thought I was a pretty good tech, with a high skill level.....enjoyed working for a dealership.......the practices you mentioned, would not be allowed in our shop.....I have never seen anyone break parts to jack up a bill....if you've seen this, you should have not only reported it to the SM but also to GM Customer Service.......

As I said before, there are good dealerships, and bad ones.....GM, Toyota, Chrysler, Ford, etc.

Normal maintenance, you can just about go anywhere......driveability problems, I would always go to a dealer and ask for their top Tech....

As I said before, if you think work was done wrong complain.....even in the editorial section of your local newspaper......but, as a GM tech, I take exception when someone comes here on this site, and lumps every GM dealership as trying to screw the customer.....I took pride in my work, and I always spread myself around the shop, if guys ran into problems.....SM's I worked for were honest and fair.....

The object of ANY business, is to make money....but not by screwing the public......that practice will cause you to lose business quickly, by word of mouth....

[j cAT]

Originally Posted by Tech II

I worked for GM, and more often than not, they bent over backwards for their customers......thought I was a pretty good tech, with a high skill level.....enjoyed working for a dealership.......the practices you mentioned, would not be allowed in our shop.....I have never seen anyone break parts to jack up a bill....if you've seen this, you should have not only reported it to the SM but also to GM Customer Service.......

As I said before, there are good dealerships, and bad ones.....GM, Toyota, Chrysler, Ford, etc.

Normal maintenance, you can just about go anywhere......driveability problems, I would always go to a dealer and ask for their top Tech....

As I said before, if you think work was done wrong complain.....even in the editorial section of your local newspaper......but, as a GM tech, I take exception when someone comes here on this site, and lumps every GM dealership as trying to screw the customer.....I took pride in my work, and I always spread myself around the shop, if guys ran into problems.....SM's I worked for were honest and fair.....

The object of ANY business, is to make money....but not by screwing the public......that practice will cause you to lose business quickly, by word of mouth....

my family members had a auto repair business. the stories of dealerships overcharging and replacing parts for increasing the profit is real stuff.

because he was an honest and trusted repair shop owner / tech he had complete control over the handling of any repair issues . 3 employees. 35 years .

he at times had to turn customers away he was that busy. I usually had to wait a few days when I used his servicing . He made a good amount of income and the customers missed his closing as it was old age setting in.

[tomj76]

I understand what you're saying Tech II, but requiring that owners be "loyal service customers" to get good service is an unfair extortion practice, and a violation of Ford & GM corporate policies.

[Tech II]

What I am saying to you is, say you are a steady customer for a dealership, that you bought your car from.....you have your oil changes and maintenance done by them....

Now let's say another person only comes to that dealership for recalls....both have the same vehicle...both have the same mileage....

Now let's say, both vehicles are out of warranty by 6 months......both develop a problem that needs to be fixed......the SM can easily go to bat for the guy who has regular maintenance records with his shop that he can show to GM, where as, he has no records with the other guy....maybe he can get GM to foot the bill or part of the bill for the guy with the records.....the other guy, he has no idea how he maintains his car.....

For example, we had a guy come in with a pulsation......normally, GM would not turn rotors under warranty, after 12 months......this guy had about 20K on his car, and had his tire rotations done on schedule at the shop....The SM could point this out to his area rep, and he would ok the turning for free......someone else coming in with the same mileage, and same problem, but didn't have service records with that shop, the SM can do nothing for him, because he doesn't know who did the tire rotations, and if proper procedures were followed(torque stick/torque wrench/star pattern).....for GM, proper torquing was the main culprit of rotor pulsations, and they weren't going to take the word of some other shop....

As an example, I was at a chain store and saw someone getting new tires put on......zip, zip, zip, zip, zip......impact gun, tightening the lug nuts in a circle instead of a star pattern....so it happens....

You can only police your own shop, not somebody else's......I pointed that out to the Service Writer and he looked at me like I had two heads....

[j cAT]

The guessing by the dealership of the tire store not torquing the wheels correctly is just a good guess based on how some of these stores operate will low skilled workers with defective tools not calibrated on a regular basis. rotor damage can be from many things including defective calipers,pads, and hardware .

the cutting of the rotors is not a recommended service as GM recommends. Gm service manual states that any cutting of the rotors will reduce the braking effort as the brake pads wear and also make the rotors more susceptible to rotor distortions .

The use of air guns to install wheels is a method that is not recommended. the use of worn sockets also will cause great amount of stress when you need to replace a tire on the side of the road. when I get tires put on I tell them not to use the air gun to install the lug nuts and not to torque the wheels to the spec torque. in the parking lot I use my torque wrench to set this correctly. I have also allowed the tire shop to use MY socket to reduce any lug hardware damage. if the rotor is distorted by improper torque it should be replaced. IMO....

if a regular customer has his oil changes / tire rotations done on a schedule and the rotors are distorted because of the GM/dealership tech over/improper toquing of the wheel hardware the dealership should be responsible especially if this brake issue occurred shortly after the rotations....I guess some dealerships would do the right thing / most will not ...

I had a case where the park brakes did not work. 20,000 mi on it. I inspected the issue and found the shoes worn 50%. took to dealership. tech adjusted the park brake cable . the vehicle had a self adjusting cable mechanism. 2,000mi later I brought the vehicle back and they then said it was because the shoes were worn . I said I never use the park brake how can they be worn out in 22,000 mi...??

after an investigation my effort. I found the the park brake hold down clip was defective this allowed these shoes to wear out and the inner rotor drum . so even when in warranty I had to pay for new shoes/rotor/and the aftermarket hold down clip that was modified to keep the shoes from wearing.. 11 years later the same shoes are still working ..

GM had a recall only on stick vehicles even though the auto tranny had the same parts/brake ...10 years later GM was sued and lost . If you still had the vehicle and your repair costs you could get some money back. NHTSA was notified and was aware that these brakes were defective but did nothing about it. it took a class action lawsuit to get GM to act.

I doubt the NEW GM will handle these type issues any differently. remember vehicle defect is not an allow word in the GM corp ....Also NHTSA is another failed federal governmental agency that just gives jobs to political supporters.

to get anything done with defects you need a few deaths then they might look at the problem. GM and the other manufactures trash the independent repair shops and also keep from these shops all the vehicle defect history data . these TSB reports are not public info. many of these could be used to prevent deaths due to vehicle component defects . I hope that soon the owners of vehicles will get acess to this info and the repair shop working the vehicle by simply inserting the VIN # and the TSB list from these auto makers will be shown.

also any TSB that is safety rated should be sent to the vehicle owner as soon as possible..

[tomj76]

I suppose the fairness of the policies is debatable, but in the end a few people feel that the warranty is not fully honored and the reasons seem like manufactured opportunities to shift the responsibility for the problem to the vehicle owner.