please do the math!!!

[serge_saati]

I made a mistake with the HV batt replacement; it's not 6000$, it's 3000$.

So at overall, we just loose 1725$ on the hybrid!

[akboss]

Good post, Serge, nice to see some metric numbers! Also consider in your post between the Camry LE and Hybrid, the Hybrid is much better equipped than the LE, so some of that end-result cost deficit for the Hybrid could be considered an equipment cost. In Canada, the Hybrid includes features over-and-above the base trim like power seats, climate control, JBL audio system, alloy wheels, etc. That is why people that cost-compare a hybrid directly to the bottom-end gas powered car are in error - hybrid models are usually much better equipped with premium features that come in $1000-$4000 packages on the gas models.

But, IMO, there just isn't enough exciting hybrids out there yet. When they make a car like the Hyundai Genesis into a hybrid, I'll start looking harder!

[serge_saati]

Originally Posted by akboss

But, IMO, there just isn't enough exciting hybrids out there yet. When they make a car like the Hyundai Genesis into a hybrid, I'll start looking harder!

I found the Mercury Mariner Hybrid really exciting, very beautiful SUV. Good fuel efficiency. Unfortunately, there's no Mercury dealership in my Country; do not know why. I've to go to NY to get one.

[akboss]

No offence but if you find a Mercury Mariner to be exciting, you really haven't driven an exciting car, or we are talking about two very different things. For instance, a Lotus Exige is exciting. Or a Shelby GT500 Mustang. Or a Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder. Even a Fiat 500 Abarth or VW GTI is exciting. Not so much with the Mariner.

[serge_saati]

You're right, it's not exciting, but's beautiful and comfortable.

[LjasonL]

Originally Posted by hardrockhillbilly

The one thing missing being that the Hybrid batteries will need to be replaced every 80,000 miles at a cost of $3,000 each changeout or $6,000 total (info I picked up from a little research).

Bull. Wherever you did your research is full of crap. Toyota warranties the Prius battery to 100,000 miles in California. There are Prii' with 200,000+ miles with the original battery.

Originally Posted by hardrockhillbilly

Honestly, besides the lower emissions, and consuming less gas

Wait a minute... why do you want us to ignore two extremely important factors? I have a social/environmental conscience and it's not all about what's best for my own pocketbook.
Not to mention driving a car that is on the cutting edge of technology is just plain hot.

Originally Posted by hardrockhillbilly

replace outdated appliances with energy efficient models ...
invest in "green" companies who are exploring alternative energy sources

Like, say, a hybrid...?

Originally Posted by hardrockhillbilly

Bottom line, the media and slick advertising campaigns are hoping that you will not pick up your calculator and your common sense and do some basic math to find out the truth.

Whatever you gotta tell yourself to make yourself feel better...

[LjasonL]

Originally Posted by Airjer_

Hardrock, I heard a discussion a while back about the prius having a larger environmental impact just to produce than the average full size truck would have over the life of the truck. Apparently the production of the batteries is the major concern. The nickle is mined in canada somewhere and the mine has a five mile dead zone around it. The nickle or whatever makes a trip around the world before the finished batteries and the car end up in the US.

I have never checked into it myself and the above is a faint recollection of what I had read, but it kind of makes you wonder if being environmentally responsible is REALLY being environmentally responsible?

That study was, bluntly, propaganda funded by GM (through CNW Research) at a time when GM was years away from being able to bring a true hybrid to market, so they were trying to downplay the Prius. They used obviously botched numbers to come to their conclusion (assuming a Prius to have a lifetime of less than 100,000 miles and a Hummer to have a lifetime of over 300,000 miles with no major repairs, for example).
The mine in Canada where the nickel comes from was an environmental travesty... 30 years ago. Today it wins awards from environmental groups as one of the most environmentally friendly large industries in Canada and a center for ecotourism.
At any rate, all cars use nickel (in chrome and stainless steel), so it's dishonest to pretend any environmental impact due to nickel mining is something that only applies to hybrids.

[serge_saati]

Originally Posted by LjasonL

Like, say, a hybrid...?

I think he means hydrogen engine or hydrogen fuel cells electric system.

Hybrid is an improvement, but it's not the future. Fuel cells are.

[NotoriousPhil]

This is a very interesting subject and you all make good points, but the most important thing I think we keep misunderstanding is that you buy a hybrid to help save the environment not save money. Here's an interesting fact it causes 80% more pollution to make a hybrid car than an normal car. Simply mind blasting!

[RahX]

Not to drag this from the depths, but it seems as if it is assumed Honda and Toyota accomplish the same thing with the same design. Toyota uses a more dedicated electric vehicle with a gasoline engine as backup. Toyota uses mainly the electric motors to drive the vehicle and the gas engine to charge the batteries. The Honda design uses a fairly normal engine/transmission with an electric motor where the flywheel is so it is more of a gas vehicle with an electric assist. The engine still charges the batteries for the most part and the electric motor assists on acceleration and deceleration. Honda does not use a typical starter, they use the electric motor to start the car which is overly evident if you ever get to start one, it is 90% silent lol. So for Honda, most of the typical gasoline engine services would still apply. Might look into the two systems and redo the math a bit.

[serge_saati]

It's good, cause in the Math of the Honda we have not considered the maintenance.
In the Camry, I've considered the maintenance in the math. Nice coincidence.

Actually, Toyota use its electric engine up to 30 mph I think w/o the bonus battery pack.
That is w/o the heater. When we use the heater, gas engine is almost on, so we use more fuel. Like you said, it's better than Honda.

The new Fusion is 100% electric up to 47 mph, it's even better. Better than GM, of course.