The 'Inteligant Design' website

[CL8]

Originally Posted by blazee

Why would they be? Hitler was a Christian...

Hitler was NOT a Christian,
he may have contemplated being a Catholic priest, but that doesn't mean he called upon God the Father in faith and repentance of sin, accepting the sacrifice of Christ for his sin and asking Christ into his heart.

[blazee]

Originally Posted by CL8

Hitler was NOT a Christian,
he may have contemplated being a Catholic priest, but that doesn't mean he called upon God the Father in faith and repentance of sin, accepting the sacrifice of Christ for his sin and asking Christ into his heart.

I know that you as Christian (like many others) don't want to admit it, but it is well known and well documented that he was a Christian. He acted on his Christian faith, and didn't really do anything any worse than the atrocities that Christians have been doing regularly for the last couple millennium.


Here is one source that gives a pretty decent summary, but there are a lot more.

It's popular among Christian apologists to claim that Hitler, the Nazis, and the Holocaust are all consequences of atheism, secularism, and liberalism. Such arguments fly in the face of reality: Adolf Hitler regularly proclaimed his faith in God, Nazi ideology was committed to supporting Christianity (on its terms, of course), and Nazi anti-Semitism was firmly grounded in Christian anti-Semitism. Hitler's theism, religiosity, and Christianity are strongly supported in his own words.
1. Adolf Hitler on God: Quotes from Adolf Hitler Expressing Belief & Faith in God

If Adolf Hitler was an atheist, why did he keep saying that he believed in God, had faith in God, and was convinced that he was doing God's work? Adolf Hitler was not just certain that his attacks on Jews were divinely mandated, but also his efforts to clamp down on society by restoring traditional morality. Christian apologists only seem to claim that Hitler was an atheist because they cannot handle the idea that a Christian theist would cause so much evil in the name of their God. Hitler Quotes About God


2. Adolf Hitler on Faith: Quotes from Adolf Hitler on the Need for Religious Faith

If Adolf Hitler's political and social policies were a product of atheism and secularism, why did he consistently say that religious faith was necessary for morality? Why did Hitler insist that faith is one of the most important things in life? Adolf Hitler's own words make it clear that he was convinced of the importance and necessity of religious faith - not at all unlike the conviction of conservative Christians today. Hitler Quotes About Faith

3. Adolf Hitler on Tradition: Hitler Quotes on Needing Traditional Moral Values

Adolf Hitler is often used as an example of what happens to a society when traditional Christian moral and social values are abandoned. In reality, one of the reasons why Hitler was so popular with conservative Christians in Germany was precisely because he promised to restore traditional morality. He opposed abortion, homosexuality, pornography, and just about everything else conservative Christians complained were ruining modern Germany. Hitler Quotes About Morality

4. Adolf Hitler on Christianity: Quotes from Hitler Expressing Christian Faith

Despite how often Christian apologists try to argue that Adolf Hitler is an example of the evil caused by atheism and secularism, the truth is that Hitler often proclaimed his own Christianity, how much he valued Christianity, how important Christianity was to his life, and even how much he was personally inspired by Jesus - his "Lord and Savior." There is plenty of evidence that he was critical of Christian churches for seeking independence from the state, but his vision of "Positive Christianity" was significant to him. Hitler Quotes on Christianity

5. Adolf Hitler on Religion: Quotes from Hitler on the Importance of Religion

Christian apologists try to portray Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party as being secular and anti-religious, but in reality Hitler regularly proclaimed the importance of religion in society. He opposed religious institutions that presumed to be rivals to the Nazi state for people's loyalty, but that's not the same as being opposed to religion itself. Like so many political leaders, he approved of religion - but wanted religion to know its place and not challenge him much. Hitler Quotes About Religion

6. Hitler on Secularism, Atheism: Quotes from Hitler Opposing Secularism & Atheism

Claims from Christian apologists about Adolf Hitler being an example of the evils committed by secularism and atheism are effectively refuted by Hitler's own words condemning secularism and atheism. Adolf Hitler did nothing to promote or encourage Germany's godless, atheists, and freethinkers but he spoke and acted regularly to promote and defend traditional Christian beliefs, values, and political policies. Hitler Quotes About Atheism

7. Christians on Hitler & Nazis: Quotes from Christians Supporting Hitler

American Christians seem to be completely unaware of the degree to which Christians in Germany threw their support behind Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. If they did, they might be less likely to pretend that the crimes of Hitler and the Nazis can be traced to atheism or secularism. They might also be less likely to do so much to transform their own Christianity into an American echo of Germany's extreme nationalistic Christianity. Christian Support for Hitler

8. Adolf Hitler on the Church: Quotes from Hitler on Learning from Christianity

Contrary to claims made by Christian apologists seeking ways to attack atheism, Adolf Hitler was not only a Christian but he in fact made it clear that he learned from the early history of Christianity as well as more recent Christian political movements. He certainly didn't copy everything from Christian churches and organizations, but Christianity was a role model in some fundamental ways. Adolf Hitler apparently believed hat he and the Nazi Party could learn a lot from Christianity. Hitler Quotes on the Church

[CL8]

Originally Posted by blazee

I know that you as Christian (like many others) don't want to admit it, but it is well known and well documented that he was a Christian. He acted on his Christian faith, and didn't really do anything any worse than the atrocities that Christians have been doing regularly for the last couple millennium.


Here is one source that gives a pretty decent summary, but there are a lot more.

Blazee, tell me what the definition of a Christian is.

You have so hardened your heart to the truth of God, his word and Christianity, that you don't know what a genuine Christian is.

Show me any one of those quotes of Hitlers that "proves" he was a Christian.
You Can't because he was never a Christian ( that doesn't mean he was Atheist) but he NEVER had the love of Christ in his heart.

The biggest proof of this is that, instead of trying to convert Gods people to Christianity, through whom he chose to send the Savior, and his word, he rather kills and exterminates as many of them as he can.

No person who hates the same race of people that Jesus Christ came from, so much that they kill them, has the faith and love a real Christian has in Christ.

[Blackcrow64]

Wow, I love the debates of this thread... I donno how I've missed it all this time... Interestingly enough, I've been doing a lot of reading and research on this subject in the last few years...

First off, I am glad MR and CL8 have discussed this matter without resorting to personal insults. All too often I see these types of threads get to the point where everyone gets mad because they "can't win the argument" and they resort to the most natural human instinct, insults... Anyways...

I have to say that I am right in the middle of the two sides. I was raised in a christian home and went to church every Sunday for most of my life... Then as I got older I began questioning all the things that had been "hammered into my mind" my whole life. You wanna see some pissed off people, try questioning the church on things that your not supposed to question. That really kills me. Curiosity is natural and we all yearn for answers to our questions. You really think God is gonna make it that easy though? If he put proof right out there that he existed then where would that put all of us and the non-believers? The world would simply exist without a purpose... I'll loop back around to this later on here...

As my questions grew and I doubted things, I left the church and was then at an age where I was free to make my own decisions and live my life however I saw fit. I went out into the world and led a very immoral lifestyle and thought it was all just grand and dandy. I'll admit it. I had pretty much given up on God with my life and did my own thing. Fortunately He never gave up on me...

I went through a lot of hard times and had to learn the hard way in life thus far. After living like that I began to question a lifestyle without moral principles and that there had to be more of a purpose in life than to just merely exist. Rather than going back to the church, I began researching things online. I found a lot of answers but for every answer there was a contradiction by somebody else. I continued searching with the same results everywhere...

What I began to realize was that we all have our beliefs and that we all are not going to believe in God... There will always be somebody trying to prove that God doesn't exist and I'm ok with that. Know why? Because there always has been and always will be opposition to God. Look at the devil for instance. He was an angel in heaven until he "opposed God." Angels know good and evil just as God does. (more on this in the next two paragraphs) We can try to teach them and preach to them about it until we're blue in the face but they will still deny it. Because that is what they believe and that's where their hearts stand... Only if they truly find it in their hearts will they believe in God.

I've slowly gotten back into the church but a different one. Now I'm in one where it's alright to ask questions and they actually attempt to answer them to the best of their knowledge of the bible. I still have a lot to learn about it and am not saying I know more than the next person by any means. I'm just stating what I believe in now. And what I believe in is God based on the experiences in my life and the way I have looked at all the "theories" out there.

At the beginning of my post I talked about purpose... I believe our purpose is to do exactly as I have been doing. Learning and growing... Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We then learned from that the difference between good and evil and we had a choice from that moment forward. We are to learn about these two things in our lives. As MR said at one point, he has good friends who are christians and those who are not and they all seem to have the same morals and standards in life. This is because of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They have chosen to do good and not evil in their lives. Now we all know that sometimes we fall prey to evil and do wrong. We've all done it and we'll all do it again. (some sooner than others) But we should be learning from these experiences and applying them to our daily lives to be more "God-like." Our goal, our purpose, in this life is to be like God so that we can be closer to Him. Remember the personal relationship CL8 was talking about? He wants that relationship with us just as much as we want it with Him. We gotta have faith in Him so that our relationship will BE the closest and most personal one ever. If we didn't have faith then it would just be an eh whatever kind of relationship. Hence why there isn't physical proof out there for all to see...

I'm sure my post was pretty chaotic and not very well organized. I apologize for that. I've never actually posted in this type of discussion before. If I need to retype something to clarify then just let me know. I usually just read and watch people hash it out but decided to stand up for once and give my input. lol

[CL8]

Interesting testimony Blackcrow64!
I'm curious what church denomination you were brought up in.

[Blackcrow64]

Originally Posted by CL8

Interesting testimony Blackcrow64!
I'm curious what church denomination you were brought up in.

My church was part of the restoration movement. I don't really understand the difference between so many of the denominations out there now that are so similar. There are several that seem the same but with slightly different beliefs. (That or somebody gets mad about one dumb little thing and decides to change it and make their own church that is practically the same as the one they left.)

The church I'm going to now is also part of the restoration movement but I think they have a better understanding of it as a whole... I've learned so much more in the last 3 months than I did in all my years at the other church.

[CL8]

hmm, this is the first I have heard of the "Restoration" movement.

From my research it includes The Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ churches.
The most important part of finding a good church is how closely do they adhere to correct, sound Bible teaching and doctrine.
This is why it is important for every Christian to regularly read the bible and know the basic doctrines of the bible.

Of course the most basic doctrine the bible teaches is that salvation is by Faith alone in Jesus Christ for salvation,
no works of our own, not even going to church or baptism can save a soul
(otherwise the thief on the cross couldn't have been saved). Only the shed blood of Christ can cleanse a soul from sin.

Is this what your church teaches?
I read on one site some of the restoration churches teach you must be baptized for salvation.
This goes completely against scriptural teaching of salvation.

sincerely, in Christ,
CL8

[akboss]

Blackrow, thanks for sharing, I enjoyed reading your post and experience. I find similarities in my own journey, and hope to keep learning and growing.

[fungologist]

Everybody has their own beliefs, what's the matter with that?, but God see everything!

[Blackcrow64]

Originally Posted by CL8

hmm, this is the first I have heard of the "Restoration" movement.

From my research it includes The Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ churches.
The most important part of finding a good church is how closely do they adhere to correct, sound Bible teaching and doctrine.
This is why it is important for every Christian to regularly read the bible and know the basic doctrines of the bible.

Of course the most basic doctrine the bible teaches is that salvation is by Faith alone in Jesus Christ for salvation,
no works of our own, not even going to church or baptism can save a soul
(otherwise the thief on the cross couldn't have been saved). Only the shed blood of Christ can cleanse a soul from sin.

Is this what your church teaches?
I read on one site some of the restoration churches teach you must be baptized for salvation.
This goes completely against scriptural teaching of salvation.

sincerely, in Christ,
CL8

They do teach that baptism is a necessary step. However, I agree with you that going to church and baptism alone does not save ones soul. They must have faith that Jesus Christ came and died for their sins and rose from the dead and conquered death. Throughout Mark, Luke, and John they teach about baptism and how John baptized Jesus and God was pleased with it. It's my understanding that it is an outward showing that you have true faith in God and have chosen to take on the Holy Spirit through the act of being baptized and live a life that is pleasing to God. Although I'm not saying being baptized automatically gives you the Holy Spirit. Instead it is something which we must discover on our own through God and that we receive it without the baptism. The baptism is just a step in showing the world that your all for God and that your gonna follow the biblical teachings to the best of your abilities. Doesn't mean your gonna be perfect from that moment forward or anything like that. It simple means that you strive to be more "God-like" than you were prior to your baptism. Like I said, I believe that baptism is not necessary if your heart is right with God and you have proclaimed that He is the Lord and Savior. It's just an outward showing that is pleasing to God. It's your way of standing up in public and proclaiming that He is the Lord of your life... Again though, this is just my understandings/interpretations of all I have read in the bible.

[Blackcrow64]

Originally Posted by fungologist

Everybody has their own beliefs, what's the matter with that?, but God see everything!

Nothing wrong with that at all. Like I said, not everybody will believe in God and nothing will change their mind. The only one that can change that is them. God will use us to plant the seed in them but the seed will not grow if the ground in which it is planted is not accepting to it. This is why as christians, we go and teach the best we can and help spread the word of God so that these peoples "ground" will be accepting to the seed. After that, it is up to us as a christian community to help that person water and nourish the seed so that it may grow in them. But like I said, that will not change a persons beliefs if they are unaccepting to the seed which God uses us to plant in them...

[Blackcrow64]

Also, just a side note to any of the Christians and non-Christians in this thread. I've created a user group for AF Christians. All are welcome to join the group if they desire to learn more about God. You can find the group in my user profile.