Electric Supercharger - Interest Poll

[mwillmon]

Hi all - I am currently working as a mechanical engineer for a company in the business of developing electric powered superchargers. I thought this would be a good place to poll the interest of possible consumers.

OK, I know Ebay is saturated with "electric superchargers" and it's all a big joke to everyone, but the reality is that this IS possible, if you have realistic expectations and good engineering. We have run these things for years on large turbodiesel engines for the purpose of reducing/eliminating turbo lag and have excellent results; the units have been used in several countries as pollution control devices in urban areas, and fitted on commercial fleets from garbage trucks to urban bus programs (frequent start/stop = high pollution while waiting for the turbo toget up on boost). We've also tested on small displacement engines and based on our old-technology compressors (much lower flow capacity than the units I'm working on now) we could make a 1.6L engine meet or exceed the performance of an equivalent 1.8L engine, with no sacrifices and better fuel economy. Additionally, I can tell you that just about EVERY turbocharger manufacturer is working on similar projects to create a workable electric assisted turbocharger. This is a very hot topic in automotive engineering right now, not just on Ebay!

I've also heard all the arguments - it takes too much power, the load will "bog" down the alternator, etc. Reality: the battery can provide enough power to operate a LARGE electric motor for 10-15 seconds, no problem. If high loads "bog" your alternator enough that you can feel it, you need to get your alternator checked. Once the current draw exceeds your alternator capacity, the battery takes over, and when the motor is switched off, the alternator recharges the battery at its leisure. An electric supercharger consumes about 50-75% as much power as your starter motor, and the starter motor does its job without the assistance of the alternator.

Like I said, you need to have realistic expectations. You will NOT increase peak HP or torque with an electric supercharger. Peak HP comes at or near redline, when your engine is consuming so much air that it would take a HUGE amount of power to compress it significantly. However, if the supercharger is optimized to create boost at low-mid RPM range, we believe it is possible to increase torque and HP in the 1000-4500 RPM range anywhere from 20-35% depending on the application. From 4500 RPM on up, the boost would taper off gradually to a 0% increase near redline. This is all projected for an engine from 1.6 to 2.0 liters in displacement. I'm bench testing these compressors right now, so I know for a fact the flow and boost is attainable, and I'm working on an integra install right now so we should be dyno testing in the next couple of weeks.

There have also been questions raised about intake restriction, and of course we have thought of that. The electric supercharger would be completely bypassed when it is either switched off or the compressor is incapable of flowing more than atmospheric pressure (like at high engine revs). In this state it will present no intake restriction.


The question is, would people be interested? My logic goes something like this: Most people in this hobby don't think twice about buying the typical I/H/E for anywhere from $500-1200 all together, and realistically gain very little torque, and perhaps 5-10 hp if they're lucky, by shifting the torque peak up a few hundred RPM. The next step is something like the JRSC or a turbo, where you'll usually spend $3000+ when all is said and done. What I'm proposing is a solution that can safely provide about 4.5 psi boost at low engine speeds, providing a torque curve very much like the JRSC up around 4500 RPM, and then blending off into the natural HP peak of the engine. For engines that are notoriously "peaky" like the Si, GSR/Type R, or the Toyota 2ZZ-GE (Celica/Matrix) I tend to think this would be very useful "low risk" solution for a daily-driven car, and installation should be a 1-2 hour job at most. We also would expect to seek CARB exemption (which we have previously attained for these superchargers in Diesel applications).

Now I'm just looking for feedback from enthusiasts like myself. My viewpoint is a little skewed since I've been in love with high-revving engines for years, and my current daily driver is a '96 Integra GSR with a B20/GSR turbo engine so I'm pretty well adjusted to making my power at high revs (although the B20 block does make the engine feel a lot happier down in the 3000 RPM range). Incidentally, I will also be pursuing applications of this same supercharger as a means to overcome any lag present in turbocharged setups.

I would just like to hear the viewpoint of others - is this a product you think you / your mom / other enthusiasts / the general public / kids with green tinted windows and huge spoilers / etc. would actually find useful? Please let me know - discuss in this thread or email me: [email protected]

Thanks for taking the time to read my mini-novel here.

[Fireinthesky28]

I would be interested to see that...let us know the progress

[ivymike1031]

We have run these things for years on large turbodiesel engines for the purpose of reducing/eliminating turbo lag and have excellent results; the units have been used in several countries as pollution control devices in urban areas, and fitted on commercial fleets from garbage trucks to urban bus programs

Well now you have me interested. Under what brand name(s) have these products been sold? In what countries were they used, and on whose engines?

[mwillmon]

Quote:
Well now you have me interested. Under what brand name(s) have these products been sold? In what countries were they used, and on whose engines?
__________________________________________________ ______
Our company is called Electronic Boosting Systems but we were formally a company called Turbodyne. You can look at the website at www.turbodyne.com for some more information. Some of our products were purchased by Detroit Diesel and run on bus fleets in Florida and some in Mexico City as well as in Canada. Although these were a sucess, poor management decisions were made with Turbodyne and projects were canceled. Now, Electronic Boosting Systems is taking off where Turbodyne left off. We are now a research and development facility and we are in the process of developing such products as described above for various market applications such as small turbo-diesel applications, large diesel applications, aftermarket performance applications, as well as OEM applications. Again check out our website for further information on past products as well as the future of EBS.

Thanks for the interest

www.turbodyne.com

[ivymike1031]

Well that explains why I hadn't heard much about your product. I suppose I'd be interested in a Honda-targeted version of this device, if the price were right ($300 range, probably).

[o0cmc0o]

This sounds like a really good idea as long as like ivymike1031 stated the price is around 300.

[jimmyfunk]

Originally posted by ivymike1031
Well that explains why I hadn't heard much about your product. I suppose I'd be interested in a Honda-targeted version of this device, if the price were right ($300 range, probably).

I don't know about $300..might be a bit low, considering what all of the rice-boys I see spend on their bolt-ons. But I'm sure you'll get a feel for what your market value is as soon as you start showing some results from this project. Sure..if you can get 4.5psi out of a device like this...you're looking at a value in the $1,000's. But anything that the community doesn't see in Super Street or Sport Compact Car...won't be considered legit to the novice enthusiast. This hobby is all hype...and if you want your product to succeed...that is what you have to create. And your also going to have a battle trying to explain why you aren't increasing max HP to the average rice boy...they might see that as a sham. But the bottom line is... make your product work...and people are going to buy it. The market always has a way of working itself out.

[luti]

The product described is exactly what I've been looking for (sort of). I love hi-revving peak power, but what I miss most in my little 4 banger is low end torque. I hate having to launch around 4000-5000 rpm. I want low end torque!! It would be wonderful to pull away from a stoplight (not racing, just driving normally) and be able to put my foot into the pedal a bit and feel the car start to really move. I hate having to slam the pedal to get power, I want it at the slightest touch, and if thats what your product delivers then you've found your first customer, or even better, I'd test it at no cost to you on my engine...

Keep us informed, sounds quite interesting.

[Rice_destroyer]

sounds somewhat like BS to me. but it's just my opinion. ok...how in the world are you gonna make 4-5 lbs of boost and not need a damn fuel upgrade? anyone who knows anything about FI cars know that you can't even have boost on a N/A car without it throwing a CEL!!! and this is at any RPM range. now tell me how are you gonna do that? so yes...please explain.

[jimmyfunk]

[quote]Originally posted by Rice_destroyer
ok...how in the world are you gonna make 4-5 lbs of boost and not need a damn fuel upgrade? anyone who knows anything about FI cars know that you can't even have boost on a N/A car without it throwing a CEL!!! and this is at any RPM range. now tell me how are you gonna do that? so yes...please explain. [/QUOTE

I will agree with that.... common sense tells you that with the additional air flow...more fuel is going to be necessarry to produce the kind of gains you want without destroying your engine.....

[ivymike1031]

What the heck does "throwing a CEL" mean? Lighting the check engine light?


The fuel injectors can deliver more than enough fuel for max-power operation. Since the system as described above does not affect max power, the stock injectors should be more than sufficient. Whether or not the control system will allow them to be used that far off the map is another question. A replacement injector controller (or chip) could make it all work.

[Moppie]

Originally posted by Rice_destroyer
sounds somewhat like BS to me. but it's just my opinion. ok...how in the world are you gonna make 4-5 lbs of boost and not need a damn fuel upgrade?

Well actualy any Honda engine in good condition is quite capable of running up to 6psi with out any worry of mechanical failer.
And all the ECU's from OBD 0 -OBD III are capable of handling 6psi of boost with standard injectors and ignition system.

The same is true for most of the Japanese Manufactors, and if you have a Nissan then the numbers are often higher depending on your engine.
Most British cars will also handle similar increases in power through boost with little or no mods.

It is anything but BS, and is infact not a new idea.
See below.



mwillmon There is a company in the UK that has been making electric S/C kits for the old Rover V8 and the Rover K series for some time.
They provide 4-5psi for the 4.2L Rover V8, and come as a kit with a mount and wiring. All you have to do it bolt it in and wire it up. The stock ECU will handle the increase in air, and is capable of reading postive air pressure. A chip is avliable seperatly however, that does make the engine a little more responsive, and little smother under boost.

The K series kit is a little more extreme. It runs more boost, as the engine is a lot smaller (1.8L i4) around 8-9psi I think, but it might be more. As a result the pistons are replaced with low compression ones, and the rods are replaced with stronger light weights ones. The ECU is also replaced with one capable of reading higher boost levels, and delivering the required fuel to the standard injectors.
Its becoming a common modifcation to many Lotus Elises, but is rather an expensive operation. Costing about NZ$12,000 all up. (about US$6,000)


I just wish I could remember what the company was called!!!!