93 accord failed Calif smog tests - 911

[Pawl]

Originally Posted by mpumas

For that year car, you should have been required to do a TEST ONLY smog check. If it fails, there is no income limits to qualify for help but you must be prepared to fork over the first $100. to get $500 help.

If you think you have an EGR solenoid problem, one way to check the whole vacuum circuit is to disconnect the hose to the EGR valve, Then drive the car to see if you get a CEL code 12 Reset the ECU and hook up the hose then drive for a couple miles. If you don't get a CEL code 12, it means the ECU is calling for the EGR valve to open so it grounds one side of the EGR solenoid seniding vacuum to the EGR valve opening it. A sensor on top of the EGR detects the valve opening and sends a signal to the ECU. If ECU doesn't get this signal, it pops a code 12.

Mpumas -I tested the system this morning. I disconnected the hose to the EGR valve and the CEL light went on. I found the 12 code to be the problem. I reset the ECU and I could not bring the code up after driving the car again. The check engine did not come on.
I am going out of town for a few days and will start working on this when I get back.I will be purchasing the plugs when I get back and seeing what else I have to move out of my way so I can get in there. The plugs on this car are smooth on top. Do you happen to live right there in the Long Beach area? I am in Cypress. Talk to you later.

[Pawl]

Mpumas - this was your reply earlier ---> The horizontal runner may be plugged and that can be determined by back blowing from the holes you just cleaned towards the EGR valve or it could be the ports under the other 2 plugs. Remove the plugs and see if they are clear. If not clean them the same was as the others.
Me ---> I am going to take all 6 out and clean them.Will you expand on this reply you sent me up above some more? Do you have the EGR valve off when you are doing this cleaning? Honda sells a packet of 6 plugs but there are 7 on the car if you include the horizontal runner. I am just guessing they dont take the runner plug out.By back blowing I am assuming the EGR valve is off so the debris can come out under pressure.In my mind there is no way to clean the buildup off the plug in the runner without removing it.I took one plug out and half of the opening was plugged. I want to send this out now to you or others before I remove the other plugs because it takes time in case you read this thread this morning. I assume the air pressure will help remove a lot of the debris. Is most of the problem that is making the car fail from the buildup right by the plug meaning do I need to roto rooter any of the channels with anything. Are you trying to vacuum up the black build up as you loosen it or just blowing it out with air pressure?

[Pawl]

I took the car over to my buddy who originally smog tested the car and he showed me before he tested the car again that there was still something wrong with the system. He put a vacuum guage on the black rubber hose running from the control box to the EGR valve.When he increased the RPM the vacuum increased and then suddenly dropped off to zero. It did it over and over.
I put another control box on my car from my brothers 1991 Accord and the same thing happened.I am not positive that the 2nd control box I used is fine because the car it came from is registered in Arizona and my brother did not have to have it smogged. I am going to fill out the " Consumer Assistance Program Apllication and see if I can get the problem solved through that.
I did discover two of the 4 ports under the plugs were completely blocked,the other two were 50% blocked and one other was fine. I cleaned out all the port holes vacummed up all the metal shavings, tapped in the new plugs. Not knowing what else to do I will see if the state will give my daughter financial assistance.

[mpumas]

I think you are ready for another smog check. The plugged ports were probably your problem. See your posting and my reply on the other thread. When you installed the new plugs the cup should be pointed down so it will be flush on top when pounded in. As for checking the runner, you do have to remove the EGR to see if air that you insert in to the individual ports under the plug is blowing back toward the EGR. And vacuuming up the carbon that you drilled out is only common sense. If you don't, it could plug up the ports you just drilled out. By the way you mentioned 2 completely plugged ports, 2 50% plugged and 1 fine. Which one was fine?

[Pawl]

Originally Posted by mpumas

I think you are ready for another smog check. The plugged ports were probably your problem. See your posting and my reply on the other thread. When you installed the new plugs the cup should be pointed down so it will be flush on top when pounded in. As for checking the runner, you do have to remove the EGR to see if air that you insert in to the individual ports under the plug is blowing back toward the EGR. And vacuuming up the carbon that you drilled out is only common sense. If you don't, it could plug up the ports you just drilled out. By the way you mentioned 2 completely plugged ports, 2 50% plugged and 1 fine. Which one was fine?

The two ports closest to the EGR valve were completely blocked to the point you could not tell there were port holes there until I worked the drill bit through.The two farthest away were 50%. There are two more plugs forward of the other four. One of the forward ones closest to the EGR valve was completely open although it didn't have the small port when you looked down into it. It appeared to be different in configuration compared to to the other four.Just a big opening once the plug was removed.The new cups went in very easy.
Eveything in the runner I vacummed up but obviously the stuff that was stuck in the port holes was pushed downward through the port hole as I cleaned it out with the drill bit by hand.
Here is my dilemna.I took the car over to the smog center and told him I cleaned the ports out after finding them blocked and was ready to check the car again.The smog technician told me the problem is else where.He opened the hood with the motor idling,took the black hose off leading to the EGR valve and placed it on his vacuum gauge.There was no vacuum registering at idle. He brought the rpm up by hand and the vacuum jumped up on the gauge momentarily and then dropped back to zero. It did this over and over. He said it should remain steady.He killed the motor with his vacuum gauge when the motor was idling.I came home and changed control boxes and the same thing happened when I put my vacuum gauge on it.
I understand what your saying about simulating the test on the treadmill but I can't get him to put the car on there and retest it.
He told me to fill out the state assistance form and send it in. I initially told him I didn't think we would qualify for it because our total household income was too high but he insisted that there are two choices of boxes to check on the form and one of the choices was the one (test only)where you put the 1st $100 out of your own pocket and the state provides up to $500 (I think you talked about this too). At least at this time this choice does not require disclosing our income on the form.
I don't know what else to do. I think I have two choices. 1.)If the state provides the assistance and I take it to a repair shop if everything is working right it will pass when the technician does his initial test when he is trouble shooting. If it doesn't he will fix it with the states money if it goes over a $100. 2.) I am assuming I could take it to another test shop and if it fails I would still have to still try to get assistance after doling out more money for this 2nd test. This guy has been testing my cars for years so he is no rookie. Once again I understand what your saying but at this point he seems to have all the marbles. I will keep you posted. I sent the form in yesterday. I appreciate all your help on this.

[mpumas]

I question your smog guy's knowledge about Hondas. His statement that the vacuum dropped to zero when increasing engine speed says it all. The only way you can test the EGR vacuum is on the treadwell. By saying that you need to get assistance means that he sees another $100 from you and $500 from the state to look at the problem. Good luck.

[Pawl]

Originally Posted by mpumas

I question your smog guy's knowledge about Hondas. His statement that the vacuum dropped to zero when increasing engine speed says it all. The only way you can test the EGR vacuum is on the treadwell. By saying that you need to get assistance means that he sees another $100 from you and $500 from the state to look at the problem. Good luck.

I am trying to figure out if he is up to something.He doesn't do repairs (test only) so if I get assistance from the state I will have to go to a repair facility. He did say if and when the state gives approval there would be a list of repair facilities to choose from and he could tell me which one to go to. He also mentioned that he thought the catalytic convertor might need to be replaced while we were standing there talking.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that with my money and the states money a repair facility can find something to fix and still give him a kickback if they are working together.
I have been going to this guy for years with no problems.This is the same guy who two years ago with this car told me how to take the EGR valve off and put the oven cleaner in there after it failed which cleaned it up enuff to just barely pass.
Why didn't he just run the test again while I was there? There were no other customers there.
I am like you. I think the car will pass after cleaning out the ports.Do I just walk into another facilty and have them test it? Now it becomes a game of what facility do I trust. Any thoughts?

[mpumas]

Well, it could be the catalytic converter also. When a shop does a diagnosis, they do the EGR valve test as described before and if it does pass they start doing other tests which may point to a cat converter. You have cleaned the ports and checked the EGR valve, so that is an expense that won't be added to your bill. If it is the cat, the $500. will probably cover the cost. So you will get a new cat for $100.

[Pawl]

Originally Posted by mpumas

Well, it could be the catalytic converter also. When a shop does a diagnosis, they do the EGR valve test as described before and if it does pass they start doing other tests which may point to a cat converter. You have cleaned the ports and checked the EGR valve, so that is an expense that won't be added to your bill. If it is the cat, the $500. will probably cover the cost. So you will get a new cat for $100.

I was looking through my maintenance records for this car. I have almost all the records from the previous owner and could not find any invoices that had to do with changing the cat convertor. I bought the car in 04.

[mpumas]

I have an Accord 90 EX and the original cat and muffler and I still pass smog but did have plugged ports which put me at the high limit about 4 years ago. So I know what you are going through. It's scarey to think how much it can cost when you fail a smog test.

[Pawl]

Just for conversation these are my last two test:

2007 test - passed

RPM-%CO2--%O2------HC(PPM)--------CO(%)--------NO (PPM)--------
Test Meas - Meas - Meas Max Ave Meas Max--Ave-Meas-Max-Ave-Meas
15mph1826--14.3---- 0.7--87--21---61--0.51-0.06-0.29--701-150--669
25mph1894--14.5---- 0.4--52--13---15--0.49-0.05-0.06--730-136--729

2009 test - failed

RPM-%CO2--%O2------HC(PPM)--------CO(%)------NO (PPM)----------
Test- Meas - Meas -Meas Max Ave Meas Max Ave---Meas MaxAve- Meas
15mph1868----14.5---0.5--87--21--12--0.51-0.06--0.04--701-150-1169
25mph1902----14.5 --0.4--52--13---9--0.49-0.05---0.03--730-136-1041