Bad weekend at VIR... oh... and how can I make this car quiet? (supertraps?)

[Cobra4B]

UPDATE 6-16-2009
Shop is really working hard to fix it...

They pulled the valve covers and without touching/adjusting a single thing photographed the rockers alignment and sent them to the R&D department at AFR because it seemed as if the AFR guide plates were what was causing the "misalignment" and not that they were "loose. Turns out that the way that they appear is perfectly normal and that they were in fact not loose at all. The tiny sideways motion from these rockers are to be expected. This is from the mouth of the company that creates these parts. After talking to Tony @ AFR they made one slight adjustment to a single guide plate as an experiment and resent the pictures to AFR. He mentioned that it didn't make a big enough change to really warrant doing it, but he wanted them to try it. So after speaking w/ Tony @ AFR I now know that AFR has moved the vales around and the rocker arms won't be parallel to each other at all. The rocker arm bolts hadn't backed off at all. This isn't anything like what I'm used to dealing with in the chevy world. Still doesn't explain the clatter I was hearing but the shop says so far it's quiet. They'll be flogging it on the dyno soon though.

As for the fan, it has been completely rewired. The damaged plug has been eliminated and a new circuit breaker was installed. The factory wiring harness was to blame for the circuit getting hot and over heating the fan controls. The car was run outside for 15mins and the car never reached anything beyond 196*.

They checked timing and it is still set at 10* INITIAL timing. They made no change to that and hopped in the car and took it around the block twice. They say the car feels very strong as is, most likely in the 300whp range, but that will be determined later when it hits the dyno. Oh, and the car never got above 199* while driving it on the street.

When they pulled back in they had a tech standing by with his heat gun. They shot all 8 primaries on the headers and they were all within an acceptable range and when pulled back in the shop there was no visable glow to any of the headers.

They've yet to make a single change to the carb and won't until their carb tuner arrives. They want it to be exactly as is was when it was performing so poorly so he can see what he needs to do to make changes. Even though, on the test drive the engine had zero problems revving and pulling all the way to redline. No stumbles, no backfires, nothing weird. It didn't diesel for them either.

Strange stuff... we'll see what comes of the dyno flogging.


ORIGINAL POST
Long story short... after a Friday night of frustration and a bad Saturday AM we put the Panoz on the trailer and hauled it back to the shop that did the motor work. It really sucks having a race car that you can't "test" on the street at all.

The car overheated idling in the pits waiting for tech inspection at VIR... I'd never just let it sit and idle for more than 5 min or so... that was the start of it all... Car was 1.5 gallons + 2 bottles of water wetter down on coolant after I got all of the air out. The car didn't puke anywher near that much when it overheated.

That led to us finding the e-fan wiring was melting and had a mind of it's own... then trying to address that into the evening we found the headers glowing at idle and it'd overheat w/ the fan working. Car was also dieseling at shut-off... so it was either too much fuel or incorrect timing. We left VIR at 11ish.

Saturday AM I finally got all of the air out of the cooling system and fixed the overheating for the most part... but didn't help the fact that the car was running rich and plugs were black. The bowls in the carb were freaking full of fuel... so we set those correctly and checked timing... timing looked fine, but fuel bowls were way too full.

Took the car out for 2 sessions and it ran horribly... no power, breaking up throughout the entire RPM band... end of 2nd session start hearing major valvetrain noise... either clatter or super detonation... bring it in... pull valve covers and all of the rocker arms are loose and 4 or 5 of them are so cocked that the roller is almost off the valve tip... not sure how the ends of the valves didn't get beat up.

At this poinst I said F it and decided that it was going back to the shop that put it all together. Lots of other little stuff was off/wrong that we found when prepping/teching the car.

This is the first and last time I EVER pay a shop to do work for me. Shop was open Saturday so we hauled the car 3 hours from VIR back to them, then went 3.5 hrs back to my parents place in Greensboro, NC. Just sucks because the shop's specialty is road race mustangs... shit they had a 2000 Cobra R there getting track prepped... the shop owner's personal car is a Griggs notchback with a AFR headed 302! You'd think they could put a 302 together blindfolded and drunk.

Will be interesting to see what they come up with... maybe we got a shit tech. They swore the guy who tuned the car was a long time CMC racer and champion and he's their "carb" guy, but seeing the bowls so full is funny... I'm a carb noob and spent an hour on the web educating myself and could figure out that was wrong.

So we'll see what comes of this... they appologized profusely and are digging back into the car over the next two weeks...

As for the loud... this car is so damn loud that it's tough to drive. I asked the shop to make it quiet and their idea was to replace the blown out glasspacks w/ actual cherry bomb brand packs.... it sure ain't quiet. So... what can be done? What's the quietest muffler I can fit on a GTRA style car? There's not much room between the sidepipe and the side nascar bars so you're limited on the diameter of the muffler unless you re-engineer the sidepipe. You could also use a chambered muffler, but with the inlet/outlet both on the same side... meaning not center in/out and not offset in/out, but both on one side... that way you could have a bigger muffler, but still clear the cage/chassis.

Also... what's everyone's expereince w/ Supertraps? do they make it quieter from your perspective as a driver or just keep sound away from a noise station? I'm thinking about different mufflers and supertraps. I'd love a single side setup like Kel, but I can't weld like that and don't want to pay the crazy fab time.

I ended up running VIR today in my mom's DD... a 2007 CLS550 w/ the AMG sport package... that car really hauls the mail for a luxury sedan. With the paddle-shifters on and the suspension on the Sport-II setting it will fly. I ended up chunking the LF tire at the end of the day trying to fend off some race cars and the brakes did fade some, but I found it amazing that a luxo-sedan could lap that track w/ other race cars. 385 horse and a 7-speed really roll out. The car is very fast from 50-130 w/ the gearing (didn't take it over that as was trying to not kill the brakes). Even more impressive was the overall handling, stering was nice and precise (compared to a Corvette and Panoz) and body roll was negligible. Was pretty awesome to have my AC on and AC'd seats turned on... much more fun that baking in the loud-ass oven that we call our Panoz.

Today's racecar...


Anyways.... goodnight!

-Brian

Oh... and have any of you added more insulation inside our around the car tub to help with heat control? I need to get a cool-shirt setup and possibly a helmet w/ a blower setup. Also found these nifty NACA ducts the 944 guys had that you can put in your window openings that will blow air right at you.

[panozracing]

Hey - WE love that EASY BAKE OVEN!

I'm sorry about your weekend. Nice to have the DD to fall back on. I hope mom isnt PISSED that her tires are TRASHED....hehe

I cannot tell you how many times I have said EXACTLY what you just said. Why pay someone to f thinks up for you. We are all capable of that ourselves for free. Plus when we do it ourselves we usually do it right or at least know what we cheesed when it breaks. Take my advice....I dont care that they were sorry they will mess it up again. When it comes to engines any shop that does race prep is not qualified to build road race engines. Only a dedicated full time engine shop even has a chance and with them you have to be VERY careful. These are not DD and they AINT no F'in drag car and racing aint race'in (damn good old boys). Road racing is very particular on the parts. I have blown up WAY too many engines TRUST me.

I gotta have a coolsuit and helmet blower. Try driving at sebring in August!!! UGH!!! I wouldnt go out for a wam up without the ice chest.

I also have custom molded ear peices for the radio that act as ear plugs too! Cherry bombs are not supposed to be quiet. The GTS/Windsor lets you run an offset muffler but the car is still LOUD!!!

Man, when we first built the latest engines we ran them with no mufflers. I loved it. Less heat inside the cockpit and man did the car sound mean! LOUD is GOOD

We did the NACA duct thing and found a peice of 3" brake duct hose stuck out the window works best. You see the speed world challenge guys do it so the drag cannot be that bad. Its easy too!

[Cobrafang]

Brian,

I am so sorry to hear about all the drama. Don't take the car back until they make it right. If they have to take it to a abandoned parking lot or something to test it so be it.

[Squerly]

Well that sure sucks, and after all that time and money too. From the sounds of things I wouldn't let those guy's mow my lawn.

[Cobra4B]

Regarding Brian's comments... we didn't have some crazy high-strung motor built... all we had done was a heads/cam swap done on the stock as-purchased 302 and converted the fuel injection to carb... it's utterly simple work. Stuff I've done to my Corvette (minus the carb stuff), but I just did't have the time to do this build on the Panoz.

I don't want to use a different shop just yet because the second a new shop touches the car the first shop will wash their hands of it. Then it gives the new shop an out to blame everything bad on the first shop.

We'll work it out...

But more importantly... how the hell do I make this car quiet and not an oven?

It's grueling to drive in it's current configuration. All last year the car was hot and loud too, but we put up with it.... tired of putting up with it.

[panozracing]

I have had top of the line porsche/ferrari/radical race track support and full 5 lift shop mess up the easy stuff. Here is the big one.... on both cars we went in for a new clutch since our new engine was tearing up the quartermaster. On the new clutch it requires a new flywheel with locating pins to line up the pressure plate and then bolt it on. Everything was fine for several weekend events racing. Then kabooomb!!! The pressure plate on my car exploded and came thru the bellhousing almost into me (is this a dragster you ask). We then took it apart myself...hmmm no pins. We then took apart the other car...hmmmm no pins and the pressure plate was cracked all over. Replaced everything and then put it all back together. The next weekend both trannys are destroyed because the clutch was never balanced the tranny was never right. So all in they cost me at least 4k in direct damage and then throw in the several weekends of missed racing, hotels, etc....BIG numbers. When questioned the shops answer was we didnt know what the pins where for. They even had them in the box to return to me. Also, since I had negotiated discounted billing rates they wouldnt cover ANY expenses.

1 of 100000000000000 painful stories. It doesnt get any easier than a clutch change on a ford/tremec in a panoz but they completely destroyed it. Very few shops will get everything right. They are going too quick and dont stand there and take their time because they are billing us for that time.

We even had a pro ALMS team make some silly smack in the face type mistakes (not as bad as above but mistakes). We have been to 4 diff. race prep shops and they all have their issues. The best shop is in OUR garages unless you step up and get complete track side support and total care on the car. That seems to go well but I cannot afford that and you leave the car with a co. and they do all the hauling and everything.

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Cobra4B

The car overheated idling in the pits waiting for tech inspection at VIR... I'd never just let it sit and idle for more than 5 min or so... that was the start of it all... Car was 1.5 gallons + 2 bottles of water wetter down on coolant after I got all of the air out. The car didn't puke anywher near that much when it overheated.

Brian, it is a basic requirement to bleed the air out of the cooling system after a head/manifold change. My concern now would be to ensure that your headgaskets are still in good shape and that they have not started to blow due to localised overheating where the air pockets were trapped. This is a classic cause for damaging heads and head gaskets. Make them do a sniffer check for carbon monoxide in the cooling system and check for any air bubbles that may indicate a gasket issue.

That led to us finding the e-fan wiring was melting and had a mind of it's own...

Should have warned you about this. My car had melted fan wiring as well that I had to sort during the carb swap. Something going on here if this is common. Probably wrong amperage wire used by the School.


then trying to address that into the evening we found the headers glowing at idle and it'd overheat w/ the fan working. Car was also dieseling at shut-off... so it was either too much fuel or incorrect timing. We left VIR at 11ish.

No uncommon for headers to glow Brian but normally due to engine being loaded. My car will sometimes 'run on' or 'diesel' at shut off. I dont worry about this to much as only happens normally after a lot of hard work. I would check that you have the right plug heat range in the car (I use NGK BP7ES plugs), float settings, timing etc as well. Other thing I would check is that all vacuum ports have been sealed around the carb and manifold. If you have had a backfire at all you may have blown a plug off a line that was blocked off by the build shop. I glue or clamp all vacuum port block off on nowadays.

Car definitely should not overheat with the fan running.



Saturday AM I finally got all of the air out of the cooling system and fixed the overheating for the most part... but didn't help the fact that the car was running rich and plugs were black.

Be careful with this Brian as I have had black plugs caused through the engine running lean but misfiring and loading up. Best thing to do is get the car back on the dyno and check it under actual load.


The bowls in the carb were freaking full of fuel... so we set those correctly and checked timing... timing looked fine

Brian, I run 34 degrees with no issues but this should be checked on the dyno with a detonation sensor bolted to the engine block. Again this is basic tuning stuff that the shop should be able to assure you that they have done. I would test them by asking at what advance setting did the car detonate. Mine detonated with any advance setting over 35 degrees. This will be different for all engines but I expect yours will be similar. I usually have ,y dyno expert run the car at increasing timing settings until the car detonates and then back it off. We then look at all power curves and use the optimal setting which for the 5.0 was 34 degrees all in (i.e. static timing + all distributor advance).


Took the car out for 2 sessions and it ran horribly... no power, breaking up throughout the entire RPM band... end of 2nd session start hearing major valvetrain noise... either clatter or super detonation... bring it in... pull valve covers and all of the rocker arms are loose and 4 or 5 of them are so cocked that the roller is almost off the valve tip... not sure how the ends of the valves didn't get beat up.
.

Brian, you will remember that I warned of this with the Comp Cams rockers we are both running. My engine did exactly this on its first hard run at the track, luckily it was only one rocker. Good news is that we did not do any damage as a result even though it occurred at 5800rpm on the straight. You have to really nip them up tight (I mean tight...........i.e. putting an extension off the allen key and cranking them until the allen key flexes in my case!!). We have had no issues with this since.

Kel.

[Cobra4B]

Ugh... ok... I'll get it touch w/ Ed Curtis who recomended them and see what he says.

You visiting the states anytime soon... want to come to Virginia and make me some exhaust

[eric1h]

Brian, pull the fuel bowls off the carb empty them out and clean the valve.

When i firts put my carb on and ran it, fuel was shooting out of the vent tubes! no matter what i did to the adjustments it made no difference. Turns out I had some crap in the lines from the braided hoses I added that was preventing the valve from closing. Sorry to hear about the crappy weekend!


bring it down to CMP this weekend it'll get it purring like a kitten!

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Cobra4B

Ugh... ok... I'll get it touch w/ Ed Curtis who recomended them and see what he says.

You visiting the states anytime soon... want to come to Virginia and make me some exhaust

Now theres a thought Brian............ Yup I'd love to come and make you an exhaust. As long as you can put up with a screaming baby (due in 3 weeks time) for the week or so it would take to fab up

Only challenge would be making it quiet enough to pass your track db tests. I have had no issues as yet and our regs require 95db max. We have active db testing at our tracks. Another benefit of having single exhaust is that you can point it out the opposite side to which your track usually tests from..............this can make a big difference

Trust that you get your tuning issues sorted out with no major drama's Brian. I usually go with a check list and I always make sure that I am there for all runs. Some guys are not very disciplined on dynos and get lazy. I am lucky that I have a good Dyno Jet operator that is only 15 mins away so easy to drag the car over there if required.

Once you get the basic tune right Brian, it should not require much in the way of changes for many many laps or even seasons. I just check the timing, rockers and float levels occasionally, change the oil and plugs etc. Re dynoing only required if you have changed to a different a major component (carb, manifold, heads, exhaust etc).

Kel.

[Cobra4B]

The shop has asked that we come up when it's re-done to watch them run it on the dyno etc. etc. to verify all is in proper working order before we take delivery.

It could be poor work, or it could be a bad MSD distributor, freak rocker arms backing off (as you experienced Kel), and junk in the carb. We'll see.

[Cobra4B]

Update from the shop... so anyone w/ supertrap experience?

[panozracing]

Originally Posted by Cobra4B

Update from the shop... so anyone w/ supertrap experience?

I had them on my dirt bikes
I used one at barber and melted my bodywork!
whats the question?

[Cobra4B]

Originally Posted by panozracing

whats the question?

Do they make the car measurably quieter?

[PRO SYSTEMS]

We run the comp cams rockers in our drag cars and our American Sedan Mustang 302 engine. We shift at 7800 rpm.

When we check the valve lash, it rarely moves (we run tight lash cams .015). Of course we tighten them down, but nothing crazy. We run stud girdles (and of course guideplates) on everything.

Get a "on car" spring tester and keep an eye on degradation of spring tension so you know when to change them.

We use the car chemistry inserts. We were 105 db at Sebring without them and 95 db with them.

Make sure your fuel pressure is rock solid (no fluctuating) and below 8 psi.

Also add a heat shield to the bottom of the carb too. Great stuff.

You can use idle fuel and main jetting to cool it off as well.

Good luck.

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS