97 lumina wont start...LIM?

[nhayward]

I have recently purchased a 97 lumina with the 3.1. The car has 139,XXX miles. It will not start.

The car seems to be well maintained. I have noticed it has the common LIM gasket leak, I can see antifreeze and oil leaking from the gaskets, I am not sure if the head gaskets are leaking, but there is not any antifreeze in the oil that I can tell, its not milky or diluted in any way. I plan on replacing the head gaskets when I do the LIM, unless you guys think this is an unnecessary expence.

My question is if the LIM leak will cause the car not to start? I have had it run for just a few seconds and then it stalled and hasnt run since. It was very rough running when it did run though.

The guy I bought the car from said that he was driving the car, then it started to sputter, then just quit, and wouldnt start. He said he had it scanned and there were not any codes. I have scanned it my self and couldnt get a code, but then again the battery was dead when I got the car, and it hasnt run since, so I doubt I would find any codes stored to begin with.

I have replaced the spark plugs(he said they were the originals), checked the cam sensor, 24x crank sensor, (I have spark, so I assume the 7x crank sensor is good). I am getting fuel, I can hear the fuel pump when I turn the key to start it, and the spark plugs are wet. It will not run on starting fluid either ( making me think that it is either too much air not allowing it to burn the fuel, or that the injectors are firing after I get spark). It will backfire through the air intake as well.

I am affraid it is the timing chain, but is this common? I am hoping its just the LIM gasket, but I dont want to replace those to find out the motor isnt any good. Is it possible for the LIM to leak enough to cause the motor to not run all of a sudden?

any help is very much appreciated!!

thanks
Nathan

[jeffcoslacker]

Hard to say.

Timing chain could have jumped. Would explain a lot.

LIM leakage won't usually cause a no start. Plugs are wet with what? Oil? Fuel? Coolant?

[nhayward]

There wet with fuel. Is it a common thing for them to jump timing with a 139000 miles? Is there any other way to tell it is out of time without removing the timing chain cover?

nathan

[Bearwulf]

Can you get the car to someone that has a scope? How fast was he traveling when it sputtered & died? When you do the LIM, check for bent pushrods. If some are bent, it has jumped time.

[manicmechanix]

Get a compression gauge and test the compression. That will tell you if you have a mechanical problem like a blown head gasket or a timing chain out of time. Are you sure you are getting good spark on at least two wires?

[nhayward]

I am not sure how fast he was going when it died. What is a scope? I cant get the car anywhere, I have no way of toeing it unless I rent a trailer. Can I rent a scope somewhere?

Will the pushrods always be bent if it has jumped time? Is there a way to tell if they are bent without unbolting the rocker and pulling all them out?

How will a compression test tell that it is out of time?

I have pulled all spark plugs and grounded them, turned over the car and I had spark on all cylinders. It looked like a good strong spark. How do I tell if I am getting a strong enough spark?


***UPDATE***
I tried to start the car again today. If I hold the gas pedal down it will start sometimes, but runs very rough like it is only running on a few cylinders, and I can only get 1500rpm with the gas pedal to the floor. If I let up on the gas it will stall. The only code that it set was the MAF, but I had that disconnected.


Thanks for all the help!!!!

[nhayward]

Also, I noticed when the car was running(barely), that the oil light, and the change engine oil light were on.
Would this have anything to do with the car running badly? I know some older cars would not run if the oil pressure sensor did not register to protect the engine from damage.

thanks
Nathan

[manicmechanix]

Originally Posted by nhayward

Will the pushrods always be bent if it has jumped time? Is there a way to tell if they are bent without unbolting the rocker and pulling all them out?

How will a compression test tell that it is out of time?

The compression test will tell you if it's out of time if all cylinders are low. If a few cylinders are low that would indicate most likely a leaking headgasket, etc. Are you seeing now how a compression test will tell you if you have a mechanical problem or not, and depending on which and how many cylinders are low point you to what the likely problem is?

I have pulled all spark plugs and grounded them, turned over the car and I had spark on all cylinders. It looked like a good strong spark. How do I tell if I am getting a strong enough spark?

If it jumps a broad gap and is blueinsh. It sounds like your spark is OK. I'm not sure why it wouldn't run on starting fluid, but you said it does just barely run if you start it normally. So you probably have either a mechanical problem which the compression test will point out or more likley thre's a problem with the fuel supply.

***UPDATE***
I tried to start the car again today. If I hold the gas pedal down it will start sometimes, but runs very rough like it is only running on a few cylinders, and I can only get 1500rpm with the gas pedal to the floor. If I let up on the gas it will stall. The only code that it set was the MAF, but I had that disconnected.

This sounds like it could be a fuel supply problem to me if compresion is OK. reconnect the MAF. Do you have a scanner that gives sensors values?

Anyway your next step would be to check that fuel pressure is around 41 psi. IF OK then you would unplug the 10-way main injector harness and with a noid light or test light check that the light flashes for each injector while cranking.

Also, I noticed when the car was running(barely), that the oil light, and the change engine oil light were on.
Would this have anything to do with the car running badly? I know some older cars would not run if the oil pressure sensor did not register to protect the engine from damage.

Well it's not good that the oil lights on, but the oil pressure switch will not keep it from running in its self.

[nhayward]

I went to the car today, and pulled off the valve cover, turned the car over to watch the rockers and only the first 3 move. So now I think that the problem is a broken camshaft.

I am looking at a used 3.1 out of a 97 lumina with 106,xxx miles on it. He guarantees it will run well once the head gaskets are replaced. He only wants 175.00 for it, so I think I am going to bite the bullet and get the motor and do a swap. The auto parts store wants 195.00 for tyhe camshaft alone, and then who knows what has happened to the motor after the camshaft broke!

How difficult is it to do a swap? Anything I need to know that isnt common sense, or in the haynes manual?

thanks
Nathan

[Bearwulf]

Be sure to get that GAURANTEE in writing.

[nhayward]

Well I went and picked up the motor yesterday. I have never seen so much oil mixed with coolant inside the valve covers before in my life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunitely when I removed one of the valve covers, one of the rockers was broke off and laying in the bottom!! I also noticed the rear manifold was cracked in half! My guess is that they drove the car quite a while with the bad head gasket and it must have gotten pretty hot to crack the manifold!

Luckily theguy is going to give me my money back, but I am still out 40.00 in gas to go there and back!

could I just replace the camshaft, or wold it be easier to replace the whole motor? I cant seem to find a motor for under 500.00 and that has over 100,000 miles on it. what years/other cars are compatible? I have seen some 2001 and 2002 3.1 motors, but Im not sure if they are compatible? also quite a few out of some grand ams.

Any ideas????

Thanks
Nathan

[Bearwulf]

Well it's not good that the oil lights on, but the oil pressure switch will not keep it from running in its self.[/quote]
If the oil pres. sending unit does not send a signal registering oil pres. it will shut down the engine right at the IM. engine will not restart until problem has been fixed.

[manicmechanix]

Originally Posted by Bearwulf

If the oil pres. sending unit does not send a signal registering oil pres. it will shut down the engine right at the IM. engine will not restart until problem has been fixed.

No I don't think so. The fuel pump use to be powered through the oil pressure switch after the ECM/PCM switched off the fuel pump relay but not on later models. Check the wiring diagram and the no start diagnostics for a later model and you'lll see it's been changed and the oil presssure switch has nothing to do with shutting the engine down.