92 Accord Starting problems

[jstarnes]

Hello, I am having a problem getting my Accord to start. I have replaced both the ECU and the TCU. I recently had the tube gaskets replaced along with the ones under the rocker arm assembly and the shift cable. The car started fine up until I had the shift cable changed.
Now the car won't start, or at least not until after 20 or 30 tries!
After several attempts I smell gas fumes as though the car is flooded and let the car set for a minute or so. When I place the car in neutral the car will start. But even that is getting harder.

Oddly enough, when the check engine light comes on the car will start.
When I put the key in the ignition the D4 lights up and appears to go through some sort of self test (fuel pump etc..) when the engine starts the D4 goes out and will not come back on. Also after the engine starts, while shifting between the other gears, the lights all illuminate P, R, D3, 1, and 2. but not D4 and the check engine light is on???
It smells as though the car is flooding itself.
The ECU flashes 8, with check engine light. Help please!!!!!!!!!!

[discnik]

Is there a way to adjust the shift cable at the neutral safety, (Park/ Gear select lever), on the transmission. Have you tried moving the shift lever around, In the PARK position, when trying to start it ?

How did you get the codes ? I thought on the early Accords you had to short the diagnostic connector behind the right side kick panel and read the Check Engine light.

Just some thoughts and questions.

[mpumas]

I'm having problems trying to figure why you replaced the ECU, TCU and the shift cable. What caused you to think they were the problem. A car won't start because fuel or spark problems. You need to determine where the problem is. Shot gunning the problem can introduce other problems especially if the parts replaced are not new. The shift cable has nothing to do with starting, only when the car is going to shift gears. Honda suggests the first thing to check when the car won't start is with the spark side. If it is a spark problem, most likely the problem is with the coil and/or igniter which are both inside the distributor. There are tests which need to be run. If you just start replacing parts, the replacement parts will probably cost more then the car is worth,

A code 8 has to do with the TDC sensor in the distributor. First reset the ECU by pulling the radio fuse (7.5 A) and see if check engine light returns. If it does, there are tests to check out that circuit. A bad TDC sensor will prevent the car fom starting.

[jeffcoslacker]

Try starting the car with the gas pedal to the floor. This singnals the injection system to go into "Clear Flooding" mode, and shuts off the injectors.

If the problem is from overfueling, as you suspect, it should start then after a possibly extended crank time, just like starting a flooded carb engine...

Won't tell you what the problem is, but could get you pointed in the right direction if it works...

If cable adjustment/NSS is the problem, it should disable the starter...it wasn't clear in your post whether the motor is cranking over without starting, or not cranking when having this problem. Please clarify...

Do try moving the shifter around as suggested while cranking the motor, see what result that gives...put the e-brake on, just in case you are able to get an engine start with a gear engaged, just to be safe.

My wife's '95 will start in any gear now after the undercarriage damage...shouldn't be possible without a neutral/park safety switch bypass, but there it is...

[jstarnes]

Originally Posted by mpumas

I'm having problems trying to figure why you replaced the ECU, TCU and the shift cable. What caused you to think they were the problem. A car won't start because fuel or spark problems. You need to determine where the problem is. Shot gunning the problem can introduce other problems especially if the parts replaced are not new. The shift cable has nothing to do with starting, only when the car is going to shift gears. Honda suggests the first thing to check when the car won't start is with the spark side. If it is a spark problem, most likely the problem is with the coil and/or igniter which are both inside the distributor. There are tests which need to be run. If you just start replacing parts, the replacement parts will probably cost more then the car is worth,

A code 8 has to do with the TDC sensor in the distributor. First reset the ECU by pulling the radio fuse (7.5 A) and see if check engine light returns. If it does, there are tests to check out that circuit. A bad TDC sensor will prevent the car fom starting.

(This is obviously a part of an ongoing problem that I thought was fixed.)
I ALSO NEED TO MENTION THAT THIS PROBLEM OCCURS WHEN IT IS RAINING or is more prominent when raining!

I replaced the TCU and the ECU because of prior problems and what I thought fixed this problem. The shift cable probably doesn't have anything to do with it. The problem just came back after the mechanic pulled the shifter and tried to replace thinking the stiffness was in the shifter and not the cable. It was the cable.
Thats when everything went south.
The shifter has electrical connects and I thought it may have shorted out something during the removal and replacement.
The car will start in park, it just appears to start easier in neutral (less tries). Sorry I just figured that out. However, it takes several attempts then the car will start.

After several attempts the car will start but not until the check engine light comes on.

I have pulled the radio 7.5 fuse and the check engine light does come back on. I have tried to reset the computer several times.
The car has yet to start without the check engine light coming on.
When the check engine light does come on the D4 disappears.

I thought the engine codes were from the flashing light on the ECU?????
I saw a post where someone put a paper clip in a connector under the passenger side but decided not to proceed until further clarification.

[jstarnes]

I also need to mention that I have replaced the distributor. And the problem is still there.

[mpumas]

Codes can come from the D4 light and the CEL when the service connector is shorted. So where are you reading the codes? CEL flashes indicate ECU; D4 flashes indicate the TCU. Also that fact that it starts when the CEL is on indicates that the ECU is in the limp mode which disables many of the inputs to the ECU which makes the engine work better and allows you to limp home. So I think you said that you are getting a code 8. If it is from the CEL and the distributor was replaced with a known good (new) distributor then the problem is either with the wiring or the ECU. The first test checks the distributor and involves removing the 8P connector at the distributor which connects TDC/Crank/Cyl sensors to the ECU. Holding the connector with the two position tits up and one tit down, measure the C/G pin (2nd column from the right) for 350-700 ohms. If not in range, replace the distributor. If there is continuity between those two pins and the distributor case, replace the distributor. If you pass those tests, reconndct the 8P plug. The next tests involve wiring and measures sensor resistence at main harness connector (not ECU), pins B13 and B14 . You should see the 350 to 700 ohm resistence from the sensor. Also there should be no continuity between B13 and chassis ground. If it doesn't pass the test, you have a wiring issue. If everything checks out, Honda sez to replace the ECU with a known good unit. If the problem goes away, the ECU is at fault.

[mpumas]

The shifter electrical has to do with the shifter position switch which causes the dashboard light to indicate shifter position. It also allows the starter to operate only when the is in P or N and the ignition key to be removed when in P. It also tells the TCU where the shifter is. If the D4 light is always on regardless where the shifter is, migjht indicate a problem with wiring or TCU.

[jstarnes]

Originally Posted by mpumas

Codes can come from the D4 light and the CEL when the service connector is shorted. So where are you reading the codes? CEL flashes indicate ECU; D4 flashes indicate the TCU. Also that fact that it starts when the CEL is on indicates that the ECU is in the limp mode which disables many of the inputs to the ECU which makes the engine work better and allows you to limp home. So I think you said that you are getting a code 8. If it is from the CEL and the distributor was replaced with a known good (new) distributor then the problem is either with the wiring or the ECU. The first test checks the distributor and involves removing the 8P connector at the distributor which connects TDC/Crank/Cyl sensors to the ECU. Holding the connector with the two position tits up and one tit down, measure the C/G pin (2nd column from the right) for 350-700 ohms. If not in range, replace the distributor. If there is continuity between those two pins and the distributor case, replace the distributor. If you pass those tests, reconndct the 8P plug. The next tests involve wiring and measures sensor resistence at main harness connector (not ECU), pins B13 and B14 . You should see the 350 to 700 ohm resistence from the sensor. Also there should be no continuity between B13 and chassis ground. If it doesn't pass the test, you have a wiring issue. If everything checks out, Honda sez to replace the ECU with a known good unit. If the problem goes away, the ECU is at fault.

OK, I will check.
I was watching the red flashing light on the ECU and thought that was the code.
It will be tomorrow morning before I can run the check. I will get back to you asap.
Thanks again!!!

[mpumas]

Thre code can be read at the ECU also but because a cover is involved to get to the ECU, it is easier to install the jumper on the service connector and then read the CEL.

[jstarnes]

Originally Posted by mpumas

Thre code can be read at the ECU also but because a cover is involved to get to the ECU, it is easier to install the jumper on the service connector and then read the CEL.

I installed the jumper on the service connector and nothing, no flashing or anything! However, the ECU still flashes 8
I have a new distributor installed and still the problem

Is it possible to force limp mode?
I'm going to burn up my starter waiting for it to come on.

[mpumas]

OK, you say you installed the jumper on the service connector and nothing happened. Did you turn the key on? (Don't try to start the car.) Without the jumper, does the CEL light and stay on or go off when you turn the key on?

Limp mode is automatic when the CEL is on.

For these tests, don't use your starter.

[jstarnes]

Originally Posted by mpumas

OK, you say you installed the jumper on the service connector and nothing happened. Did you turn the key on? (Don't try to start the car.) Without the jumper, does the CEL light and stay on or go off when you turn the key on?

Limp mode is automatic when the CEL is on.

For these tests, don't use your starter.

Yes the key is on and the ceck engine light is off. It appears to reset itself when the key is turned off
The ECU flashes code 8 with or without the check engine light and with or with the jumper..
But no indication of a problem on the console with the jumper installed.
I did have the tube seals replaced and the plug seals which require removal of the rocker assembly! Which may or may not have anything to do with the problem.

[mpumas]

Does the CEL light come on when you turn the key on then go out? If so the ECU is self checking and the light coming on indicates that it works. The difference between the CEL is that it will only come on if there is a problem which can be diagnosed by installing the jumper and counting the flashes. The LED on the ECU will blink whenever there is a stored code which means there was once problem but it may no longer be a problem. But you should be able to clear the code by removing the radio fuse (7.5A) then reinstalling. So, I think the first thing you need to do is to get the CEL and ECU working properly as to proper indication and displaying of codes. If you are still getting a code 8, you need to perform the tests for TDC problems that I mentioned earlier. I find it interesting that you say that you sometimes get CEL when it is wet. Possibly water inside a connector? I don't know. As for the replacing the upper and lower spark plug seals, I can't see how that would create a problem unless the connector near the distributor was distrubed. Also are you sure that you are jumping the service connector? "No problem on the console with the jumper installed" What console?

[somick]

Originally Posted by mpumas

Does the CEL light come on when you turn the key on then go out? If so the ECU is self checking and the light coming on indicates that it works. The difference between the CEL is that it will only come on if there is a problem which can be diagnosed by installing the jumper and counting the flashes. The LED on the ECU will blink whenever there is a stored code which means there was once problem but it may no longer be a problem. But you should be able to clear the code by removing the radio fuse (7.5A) then reinstalling. So, I think the first thing you need to do is to get the CEL and ECU working properly as to proper indication and displaying of codes. If you are still getting a code 8, you need to perform the tests for TDC problems that I mentioned earlier. I find it interesting that you say that you sometimes get CEL when it is wet. Possibly water inside a connector? I don't know. As for the replacing the upper and lower spark plug seals, I can't see how that would create a problem unless the connector near the distributor was distrubed. Also are you sure that you are jumping the service connector? "No problem on the console with the jumper installed" What console?

Let us start from the very beginning!
Is your "check engine" light on when engine running?
If yes, stop the engine, pull service connector from behind the glove box (the one with two wires plugged into a dummy terminal), shorten two contacts, turn your key to ON (engine not running).
Does your "check engine" light blink?

Could you describe how you got code 8?

Sam