Bad fuel pump? 95 3.8L 158k miles

[tripletdaddy]

AC clutch first time startup noise is like that on mine. I go into greater detail on another post to you.

Those various clicking noises you describe like the alternator or one of the idler or tensioner pulley bearings. I have a 24" screwdriver like pry bar I like to use as a listening tool on things to isolate noises. When the engine has other noises that I can't stop or eliminate, like bending the heat shield, etc., I cover one ear and jam the handle into the other . I also use a three foot section of hose to do the same. It's nice in that you can listen through it hearing a noise from afar and can move in on it until you get right on it, something the screwdriver can't
do. I have also observed that each "hears" different sounds better than the other. The mechanics stethescope is nice, but when I use it on something that vibrates a lot like the belt tensioner arm, it really bounces too much so you really can't hear anything meaningful. With those tools, you should be able to pinpoint and seperate those different noise sources. Unfortunately, there are some noises in the two pulley bearings that are only there at idle to 750 rpm. Those don't worry me. It's when they are noisy at higher or all rpms that I want to replace immediately. The alternator can make a funny noise from its brushes. I thought I had a bad bearing or bushing at the back side of a NAPA reman. alt, but I think it was the brushes as when I opened it up, the bearing seemed fine. It made kind of a high pitched whine. The rectifier, regulator, diodes overloaded or something, melting some of the field solder points. Glad it was warrantied!

[searcherrr]

Day 2 and no word from shop on the Demon Ride.

When I get it back if its still doing its same idle dip bullshit I'll do that voltage test at the ig coil harness.

Tripletdaddy - on #2 you sure you meant 6.0 to 13.0 v? Cause you were talking about resistance testing. Kinda confused on the "v" there. It was late when you wrote that though. hehe

Also tri-dub-daddy (hehe) I think you have the same problem then with the A/C clutch 1st time engaging. It should always engage fairly smoothly no matter when its turned on. I'm leaning towards one of the a/c switches (high pressure or cycling switches) or both of them.

It'll be interesting to find out though if there is freon leaking from that pipe near the washer reservoir fill spout. I have NO idea what this could be, but I tie wrapped a clean WHITE rag around this a/c hose/pipe to try to catch the color of whatever I thought was leaking out of it and somehow there is a DEEP BLUE COLOR fluid on this rag now. WTF is that? I showed it to the master tech at the shop and he was like, "What is this blue stuff?" All I could tell him is that it wasn't there when I put the rag on. Does leaking freon oil combined with air and water moisture possibly turn deep BLUE? LOL - This stuff just keeps getting better and better. I mean it wasn't anything like the green coolant..... it was BLUE.... DEEP VIVID BLUE. lol

[tripletdaddy]

Originally Posted by searcherrr

Day 2 and no word from shop on the Demon Ride.

That's rich! Being that you're in LA, have you considered again that you are the victim of bad voodoo?

Originally Posted by searcherrr

Tripletdaddy - on #2 you sure you meant 6.0 to 13.0 v? Cause you were talking about resistance testing. Kinda confused on the "v" there. It was late when you wrote that though. hehe

Hey, what do want for free? You're lucky I got that much right. Yup, it should have been ohms. I'll straighten that out.

Originally Posted by searcherrr

Also tri-dub-daddy (hehe) I think you have the same problem then with the A/C clutch 1st time engaging. It should always engage fairly smoothly no matter when its turned on. I'm leaning towards one of the a/c switches (high pressure or cycling switches) or both of them.

It only is noisy on the first engagement. Yeh, I'd rather it not do that, but I have to carefully pick my battles. Since the harshness clears up after the initial clutch engagement, I'm not too terribly worried about it. It's kind of like the old dryer that came with my house. At first startup, you think it's ready to be junked - the drum wheels probably need replacement, but once it gets turning, the sound goes away. In fact, I'm that way everytime I get up!?! I don't follow why you think the pressure/cycling switches have anything to do with it. Can you explain? I fully expect it to be the clutch, clutch bearing or the compressor itself, as that is the source of the noise.

Originally Posted by searcherrr

It'll be interesting to find out though if there is freon leaking from that pipe near the washer reservoir fill spout. I have NO idea what this could be, but I tie wrapped a clean WHITE rag around this a/c hose/pipe to try to catch the color of whatever I thought was leaking out of it and somehow there is a DEEP BLUE COLOR fluid on this rag now. WTF is that? I showed it to the master tech at the shop and he was like, "What is this blue stuff?" All I could tell him is that it wasn't there when I put the rag on. Does leaking freon oil combined with air and water moisture possibly turn deep BLUE?

No, not that I'm aware of, but with your van, anything is possible. (Sorry man, even you call it the Demon Ride ) That would be a new one to me. I remember you previously mentioning a colored fluid on your ac system that I thought I said most likely is the dye that is often added to the refrigerant in the ac system to later help pinpoint the source of a leak. Did you try a black light on it? It will glow when illumionated. Maybe I was having this discussion with someone else. Clean up the blue stuff real good, then run the ac to pinpoint the exact source of it. Did the shop disconnect and recharge the ac when they did the engine swaps? They would know if it's blue if they did.

Originally Posted by searcherrr

LOL - This stuff just keeps getting better and better. I mean it wasn't anything like the green coolant..... it was BLUE.... DEEP VIVID BLUE. lol

[searcherrr]

Every little bit seems to make this van stronger and more reliable.

Fuel pump was replaced and the pump and tank were absolutely filthy. There was red material all inside. The fuel pump itself was full of it. I thought it may be rust, but there really isn't enough metal in there to cause that much rust. The van runs noticeably stronger now, quicker response, much improved pickup.

He fixed my exhaust so it doesn't swing like it did before their 1st install of it. I imagine I will not be charged for this since it was followup work.

BUT..... the clicking at the alternator area still remains, the near stall still happens, though the idle recovers faster now... but not much faster. The a/c still sounds like its going to jettison the clutch on the 1st turn on after sitting for a day or so and the colder it gets the worse it sounds though a/c troubles aren't really concerning me much at this point, but its just another thorn in my side.

And so today I was over there around 1pm and left it with them due to the clicking/scrapping noise. I got a call around 4:30 pm with them finally saying the altnerator needed to be replaced. I'm a bit confused as they and another shop tested it before and it tested fine, but if this is the bearing failure people on here have reported then no electric test would've revealed it.

So, we shall see if this yet another addition -ALTERNATOR- resolves the near stall issue, the bad MPG, etc.. It kinda makes sense when you think about it though because I have had a blown ECU and a Blown MAF (AFM or MAS for whoever) to where the element wire was literally blown off/severed from something.... which I'd guess would be more likely to be an electrical overload than debris getting into the air chamber.

The only thing that bothers me about this is psychology. No matter how many times my trusted shop is right and always fixes things very well I still never trust them 100% and wonder when it is they are getting tired of me and will just try anything to fix the problem.... though they've never replaced anything that really n honestly didn't need replacing.

I have come to realize though that I task them with a great deal more than most customers do. I literally bring in a numbered list of things to fix ranging in 5 - 7 things per visit. I have found out it works better if you keep it down to 1 - 3 things for my sake and theirs.

The other and probably main reason I said "psychology" is that when I was there I told them I'd read about bearing failure for the Alternators on this Windstar forum, so I'm wondering if I just "gave them" a subconscious suggestion to focus on... IE: Are they replacing the alternator cause I said its possible and since its the original and everything else is new... why not. LOL - I won't really care if the clicking is gone and the near stall is gone too.

If this doesn't get rid of the near stall the last things I will do are:
Pull the cowl and inspect rear of engine for vac leaks and bad grounds.
Try an OEM IAC (even though mine is new aftermarket)
Try a new ICM (or IGM)

After that I give up and will be more convinced it is an electrical issue that I simply can't track down.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by tripletdaddy

That's rich! Being that you're in LA, have you considered again that you are the victim of bad voodoo?


Hey, what do want for free? You're lucky I got that much right. Yup, it should have been ohms. I'll straighten that out.


It only is noisy on the first engagement. Yeh, I'd rather it not do that, but I have to carefully pick my battles. Since the harshness clears up after the initial clutch engagement, I'm not too terribly worried about it. It's kind of like the old dryer that came with my house. At first startup, you think it's ready to be junked - the drum wheels probably need replacement, but once it gets turning, the sound goes away. In fact, I'm that way everytime I get up!?! I don't follow why you think the pressure/cycling switches have anything to do with it. Can you explain? I fully expect it to be the clutch, clutch bearing or the compressor itself, as that is the source of the noise.


No, not that I'm aware of, but with your van, anything is possible. (Sorry man, even you call it the Demon Ride ) That would be a new one to me. I remember you previously mentioning a colored fluid on your ac system that I thought I said most likely is the dye that is often added to the refrigerant in the ac system to later help pinpoint the source of a leak. Did you try a black light on it? It will glow when illumionated. Maybe I was having this discussion with someone else. Clean up the blue stuff real good, then run the ac to pinpoint the exact source of it. Did the shop disconnect and recharge the ac when they did the engine swaps? They would know if it's blue if they did.

That bad voodoo stuff is hilarious. I believe in it now!!!!!!

Glad you Ohmed yer ohms.

The a/c switches are responsible for proper clutch operation ... ie: when it should turn on based on those switches... I was wondering if the cycling switch might just be worn out cause I think both the high pressure and cycling switch are based on pressure in the a/c system. My thinking is that maybe the switch doesn't know if its the right pressure or not and/or just worn causing the clutch to kick on late. HOWEVER.... now that I'm getting a new alternator.... this could even be related. Maybe the electrical signal that was going through the lines wasn't right for the clutch to engage properly the 1st time.... I dunno. In any case the a/c switches to me are wear items. I'm not quoting specs or docs right now so I don't have the full info on the a/c switches.

My a/c system has been charged 2x since the engine swap. 1st time during the 2nd engine swap. 2nd time when I brought it back saying it didn't feel as cold. I asked'em to check the a/c freon pressure this time around, but they haven't gotten to it as it wasn't one of the main priorities.

And I kid you not..... today when i test drove the van around after getting it from the shop (returned it afterwards) when I cut on the A/C clutch it sounded like it was going to ROCKET out of the engine bay.... it was extremely abrupt and metal clanking sounding...... the word "jettison" I used above is fitting.... but odd.... after that.... no noise at all. That is very strange to me.

Anyway, my pump was bad (purpose of this thread) and the sock was the color of rust.... whatever the material in there was I have no clue.. maybe it was part rust or whatever from fuel stations tanks????

SUPPER TIME - LATA !

[tripletdaddy]

Well, glad to hear you have made some forward progress and the reward that it was a justifiable repair.

Your AC clutch could be going and so could the compressor. I suppose it is possible your pressure cycling switch (found screwed into the low side pressure line that leaves the dryer/accumulator by the low pressure test port) is chattering as it closes to engage the ac clutch. The power supplied from the ac selector switch to the ac clutch passes through this cycling switch, first, to the high pressure switch, second, and then to the CCRM and PCM. Now the high pressure switch (found screwed into the high side pipe just after it comes out of the back side of the comp) has nothing to do with normal cycling on and off of the compressor, as it is normally closed allowing power to pass through. It only gets involved with the cycling of the comp when the pressure gets too high, but normally the compressor won't need to cut off while running due to too high pressure. You could check if you are getting the right "signal" to the ac clutch by measuring at the plug, disconnected for battery voltage. Another thought is to check that the air gap is correct, 0.019 - 0.025 in., between the clutch plate and the compressor side. It may be slipping while engaging, causing the noise. These pressure switches can be r/r while the system is under pressure as there are check valves in the line. These parts can be a little pricey, but at this point what's a little more money sacrificed to appease the Windstar Demons!!!

[searcherrr]

I'm extremely livid.

I got the van back on Friday afternoon.

Exhaust work is very nice. No more swinging tailpipe.

Fuel pump installed with new sender. - MPG seems same. They didn't measure the PSI for me as I'd asked, but I will do so tomorrow and if its not up where it should be then all that could be left is a leaky injector.

They put on a new radiator cap despite me putting a new one on recently cause he thinks the fluid was still seeping out of it onto the belt. I haven't heard a squeaky belt yet, so maybe this was a fix. I didn't ask him to do this, but I had mentioned how I'd already fixed this myself, yet he messed with it anyway. I believe this was a "smooth-over" tactic for the following.

Alternator - Between labor and for the part itself this was about $350. At this point I do not believe the alternator was bad. I had it checked at O'Reilly's and it was fine (new test equipment), I had it tested also at Autozone and Advance Auto and Diagnostic (my now "so-called" trusted shop) not too long ago and they said it was fine too.

While I was there on Wednesday I had mentioned the bearing failures on other Windstar's alternators and I think now that as a shot in the dark they just went ahead and replaced it hoping the noise would go away.

I had checked it myself with my multimeter but my multimeter batteries were failing and that test I saw voltage variation, but I really don't know if it was due to the alternator or my multimeter batteries going out. I also had tested it previously before my multimeter batteries were going out a while back and it tested out fine.

SYNCHRO - CAM SENSOR - The whole reason the ALTERNATOR was replaced was due to the clicking/rattling noise I hear only when the engine is fully warmed up. I only hear it then. Revving seems to make the sounds "less heard", but I still hear the rattling and as I rev with the throttle body lever I can feel the vibrations from whatever it is that is clicking/rattling.

I guess this thread's purpose is dead so now I'll move it on to another one: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...24#post5902624

[searcherrr]

tri-dub-daddy - The a/c compressor and clutch are both new. I think its bad shimming even though I had it reshimed after the initial installation at my "so-called" trusted shop.

I am so f__king furious about this sh_t. Its been over a year I've been trying to get this van right and it seems like there is no one intelligent enough that wants to put in the time to fix the thing properly. It seems like I'd have to go to ASE certification school just to get everything how it should be and buy my own shop and do it all myself.

Why are there so many damn morons out there? Are all techs/mechanics really just good for REMOVE and REPLACE ONLY? When it comes to diagnosing something with some THOUGHT we're all just truly shit out of luck? MY GOD I just can't believe it..... I'm just so furious.

[searcherrr]

Sorry for the rant everyone, but this has been a 15 month ordeal.

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