Proposition 8, Same-Sex Marriage, and Views on Gays

[KustmAce]

Originally Posted by SL3000gt

What is pathetic is that KustmAce always walks into a thread trying to look like a saint taking the side of the liberal defendants and then saying that arguments or people agianst his ideas that are going to come in are just going to be prejudice. Sure, keep walking around in the beautiful liberal mind you have with the idea that nobody could have a legitamate stance to go agianst your ideologies.

If you have a legitimate stance, please, lets hear it.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by ericn1300

If the anti gay agenda is in the defense of marriage as an institution to be admired then why do their proponents reduce it to just to a matter of reproductive lust?

The Christian view of marriage seems to be to copulate regularly and “Go forth and multiply”. How spiritual.

Gay marriage seems to be about a union of souls dedicating themselves to each other for a life time regardless of all the challenges to their love for each other, both internal and external.

Drop the idea's of sexual acts out of your dirty minds and look at the real people and emotions and real consequences to those who are you're daughters, sons, cousins and friends .

Well said!!

Vinny, I have been married (to a woman) for 15 years and am straight. But if (I should say when, because it's happnened) a gay man has made a pass at me, I am and flattered by the sentiment. I am secure in myself enough to accept the attention as a compliment and leave it at that.
Studies have shown that gay men (and lesbians too) tend to be better educated than the general public. They are not stupid; when they realize I am straight, they are bright enough to let the issue drop graciously.

America maintains a philosophy of 'pursuit of happiness', individual freedoms etc. It is IMHO un-American for some to deny gay people the right to be happy; to pursue the lifestyle that suits them when it does no harm to others.

This kind of denial of basic human freedoms (based on orientation) is worthy of Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia and brutal, militant Islamic states. (Those regimes did and still do oppress gays.) I am surprised that some Americans tolerates this kind of utterly unfair and unjustified oppression of gay people. It is wrong.
Many Americans bravely fought and died to oppose such discriminatory regimes. So why allow it at home??

Yes, I realize that Proposition 8 was passed by a majority of voters. It is commendable that the California government took the time for the voters to have a say on the issue.
But that does not mean the outcome is right. The majority of people in Germany in the 1930's and 40's supported the Nazi government in its oppression of Jews. Does that make it right??? No, or course not.

(Edit: I do not blame the voters who passed Proposition 8. I am sure they believe they are doing the right thing. However, the gay/lesbian community has to better inform the public of their side of the issue)

There are plenty of examples of the government having to take action to protect the interests of a minority of people who are being oppressed. In this case, a minority group ARE being unfairly oppressed, yet the government lets it happen. It is wrong, wrong, wrong.
I am thankful that the gay/lesbian community will fight this misguided law in the courts. I am confident that in the end the American judiciary system will arrive at a fair, equitable and balanced decision.

BTW my province (Ontario) allows gay marriage and has done for many years. Our society is still moral; the sky has not fallen; God has not condemned us (except with snow, it seems).
The vast majority of people here accept this because it helps to build a better and happier society. It is good for people to be tolerant and free of prejudice, regardless of the circumstances.
Gay marriage in itself harms no one. But it makes the people involved happy. And isn't that all any of us want in life; to be happy?

[VR43000GT]

Originally Posted by KustmAce

If you have a legitimate stance, please, lets hear it.

Truth be told, I don't really care what they do. On that issue, I am impartial to one side or the other. However, there are some people who feel morally that marriage should be between a man and a woman, that's fine. And I just don't see how someone could "choose" to be hetero or homosexual. It just does not seem fesible that I take for instance, could just all the sudden say, "I am not going to be a heterosexual anymore." At the same time, do I want them to get married? I don't know, it's a tough issue I think. But one thing I do try to do is accept that there may be reasons that people who believe different on a subject may in fact have a legitimate reason instead of attacking them before they have a chance to make a stance.

[speediva]

Not typically venturing into this forum, I'm surprised that no one has yet cited the Keith Olbermann comment on Proposition 8.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HpTBF6EfxY

If your next-door hetero married couple has no real impact on your life, why would your next-door homosexual couple have any other meaning? If you're indifferent, that doesn't mean you even have to vote on it... It would appear to me as though those who were indifferent just opted to let the passionate majority (whether "right or wrong") take their stance.

As for the Black and Latino populations voting for Prop 8, it's largely against their culture to be gay. I happen to know a number of gay black teens and they are ostracized and/or beaten and attacked. One girl in particular has permanent facial scars all across her face from an attack just because she is gay. I don't know many Latinos, but given what I know of Latin culture, it appears to be rooted in masculinity rather than femininity.

[2strokebloke]

Originally Posted by speediva

As for the Black and Latino populations voting for Prop 8, it's largely against their culture to be gay. I happen to know a number of gay black teens and they are ostracized and/or beaten and attacked. One girl in particular has permanent facial scars all across her face from an attack just because she is gay. I don't know many Latinos, but given what I know of Latin culture, it appears to be rooted in masculinity rather than femininity.

At the risk of sounding racist, these cultures do place a lot of importance on masculinity, and generally are pretty sexist. It is a broad generalization, but if you have ever spent time in Mexico, or watch or listen to pretty much any black entertainment, then you know what I'm talking about. Sexism is the root of all homophobia.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

BTW my province (Ontario) allows gay marriage and has done for many years. Our society is still moral; the sky has not fallen; God has not condemned us (except with snow, it seems).

How do you know for sure? ...... And you can have the snow.

But seriously. Speaking of a can of worms and morality how does adultery apply to gays and same sex marriages? There are also legal issues like grounds for divorce. Adultery is not a crime in any jurisdiction of the U.S. that I know of but a moral issue and raised in many divorces. In the U.S. Military it is enforced under the UCMJ and punishable.

For example the New Hampshire State Supreme Court struck down a divorce lawsuit where one spouse (man) claimed the other was having extramarital sex with another female. The Justices ruled that it is not adultery since the females were the same sex or something to that effect. These issues have to get resolved IMO, otherwise it all doesn't make sense.

[ericn1300]

Originally Posted by BNaylor

Adultery is not a crime in any jurisdiction of the U.S. that I know of

It's still illegal in Idaho, both adultery and fornication. A cop in town near here lost his job because he was fornicating with his live in girlfriend. Idaho also no longer allows common law marriages.

Originally Posted by http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/fischer/070821

In many states, including Idaho, sex outside marriage is against the law, and that includes consensual sex between teenagers. Sex outside marriage, whether "fornication" or "adultery" from a legal standpoint, is punishable by both a fine and imprisonment.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by BNaylor

But seriously. Speaking of a can of worms and morality how does adultery apply to gays and same sex marriages? There are also legal issues like grounds for divorce. Adultery is not a crime in any jurisdiction of the U.S. that I know of but a moral issue and raised in many divorces. In the U.S. Military it is enforced under the UCMJ and punishable.

For example the New Hampshire State Supreme Court struck down a divorce lawsuit where one spouse (man) claimed the other was having extramarital sex with another female. The Justices ruled that it is not adultery since the females were the same sex or something to that effect. These issues have to get resolved IMO, otherwise it all doesn't make sense.

Normally, common sense would say that the same standards apply as found in hetero marriages. However, if it comes right down to what particular 'acts' constitute adultery, there may have to be some legal prescidents set. IMHO part of the argument would have to be the context of the 'act' or the seriousness of the adulterous relationship............ or else we will end up with a Clinton-esque muddle about what constitutes sexual relations.

[whttrshpunk]

Marriage is not an institution that the government should be concerned with at all. I am morally opposed to the homosexual lifestyle. However, I am not legally opposed to it. It seems the majority of Americans have forgotten that these 2 concepts can be separate.

I see no legitimate reason why the government should ever be involved in the process of marriage. The only time I could see a need for legislation concerning marriage would be in the event of divorce for the distribution of assets. But, even in that case I think that responsibility should lie with the people getting married. Prenuptial agreements or a practice of putting everything in both of their names could alleviate these concerns.

Summary: Less government, thanks.

[YogsVR4]

Marry a goat for all I care.

Just don't expect me to help support your 'Thomas' offspring.

[mudslinger88]

To be honest with ya'll, I could care less whether or not same-sex people get married or not. Just keep it out of the press. Same for any other kind of marriage, whatever you prefer, just keep it out of the press and quit making such a big frigin deal out of the dumbest shit. Who cares who gets married. if you want to get married to somebody, go effing marry the person. Just don't impose you lifestyle upon those who are different. Neither side can make a good argument with who is right. There are more important things to worry about in this world and country. For example, the global financial state, the war on Terrorism, the Piracy issues and many other threatening situations happening or about to happen. Let the people who would prefer same-sex marriage have thier way and let the people who prefer opposite-sex marriage have thier way. Everybody needs to get off everybody elses back. We only drag eachother down with this 'he said' 'she said' bs. Remember that what one person considers gross and discusting is just fun and a kick ass time for another, for example, your typical woman, note I didn't say all but the most that I have met, don't like to get thier hands up into an engine because it's dirty, whereas just about any guy I know will dive headfirst into any engine rebuild project. Why might that be you ask? Because every person is different. Let em be. One mans/womans trash is another mans/womans treasure. Why should people be tortured and drilled on thier way of life? It doesn't present any medically unhealthy issues that I am aware of so it can't be argued that way. Immoral? That is a matter of religious opinion. Keep it to yourself and your god(s). Each religion poses it's own strong points, but each has it's weak points when challenged with another religion. That can't be used as a real and legal fighting point. Seperation of Church and State. If anybody disagrees with any particular point, I'm sorry. I am stating my personal opinion. I always enjoy reading/hearing other people's opinions and I state my own where I think it would be appreciated.
:2gay:

[twospirits]

What we viewed as marriage today is nothing from what was considered marriage thousands of years ago, 100 years ago or even a mere 30 years.

I downloaded this webpage years ago while doing an essay on marriage for college, and athough it no longer exists at the original sites, I uploaded it to my website since it still enlightens one on how marriage has changed throughout the years. What was surprising was the fact that the Catholic church legitimized same sex couples for over 1500 years up until the 1800s.

Mind you its a long read, but quite eye-opening.

Personally I don't care what its called, marriage, unions etc, so long as the same rights (estate, hospital visits) and benefits (tax filings) etc are the same.

TS out