2002 Lesabre....Good buy?

[pcmos]

3rd gear is not the concern, its actually an issue with 4th gear. The hub that holds the clutch plates for the 3-4 clutch splines into the input sun gear. The splines on the shaft of the clutch hub are weak and tend to strip out so the clutch hub simply spins inside the input sun gear. The affect is a total loss of 4th gear. For me it was virtually instant. In fairness I was driving through the colorado rockies in overdrive (not purposely) and I had a pretty heavily loaded trunk. I simply forgot to keep the car in 3rd which probably would have avoided the disaster. You're 98 almost surely has the weaker design. It depends on a number of factors though, the computer seemed to allow the car to shift into 4th gear under pretty heavy driving conditions on my 2000. The 2004 seems to keep it more consistently in 3rd on uphill climbs. That is a matter of programming, which in and of itself may have prevented the damage on my 00. I also had the 3.05 final drive ratio on the 2000 which was a rare option that came with the gran touring package. Although I enjoyed the added performance and handling so much I found an 04 that also had the Y56 package.

The biggest problem though is that for a simple failure the repair work is outrageous. Getting to the 3-4 clutch and hub requires removal of the side pan, valve body and channel plate, as well as the drive chain and sprockets on the 4t65e. Only then can the hub get pulled out of its position in the input sun gear. I chose to attempt a full rebuild because when I got in there I was finding steel shards all over the place. The 4th gear clutch hub itself costs about 35 bucks at most, but labor to replace it would be in excess of 1200. Lol, the hardened part seems to hold up well though. Ive done the same difficult drive three times now in my 2004 and I also did it once more after the rebuild in my 2000 with no problem.

In 2003 though, GM upgraded a number of troublesome features on the 4t65e transmission and improved some minor things on the LeSabre as well. The 2002 model incorporates virtually no updates from 2000 when they re-designed the LeSabre. In 2003 they revamped the car and tweaked a few things that were causing common complaints. Bottom line is that my 2004 has been 2x more reliable and sturdy than my 2000 ever was. The dash rattles are virtually gone, suspension clunking issue is non existent, transmission feels much better and the fuel economy is better.

If you're in the market I would recomend getting a good used 2003 from a GM dealer and purchasing the GMPP major gaurd warrenty, which gives you full warrenty coverage beyond the basic 100k powertrain. The dealer has made good on my warrenty a number of times, I particularly like it because its not some bogus aftermarket warrenty, its a policy written by general motors.

[polarzak]

My 2000 has been wonderful. It has had NONE of the problems mentioned,
such as transmission clutch or the widow regulator problems. In fact, only the plugs and wires have been changed, and tires and I believe (not sure as my wife drives it) it has about 200k on it. It a beautiful car, superb on the highway, and has been absolutely trouble free from day one.
My Buick Lucerne (which replaced the Park Avenue and LeSaber) on the other had, is a piece of junk. Stay the heck away from them.

[GringoPete]

Originally Posted by pcmos

3rd gear is not the concern, its actually an issue with 4th gear. The hub that holds the clutch plates for the 3-4 clutch splines into the input sun gear. The splines on the shaft of the clutch hub are weak and tend to strip out so the clutch hub simply spins inside the input sun gear. The affect is a total loss of 4th gear. For me it was virtually instant. In fairness I was driving through the colorado rockies in overdrive (not purposely) and I had a pretty heavily loaded trunk. I simply forgot to keep the car in 3rd which probably would have avoided the disaster. You're 98 almost surely has the weaker design. It depends on a number of factors though, the computer seemed to allow the car to shift into 4th gear under pretty heavy driving conditions on my 2000. The 2004 seems to keep it more consistently in 3rd on uphill climbs. That is a matter of programming, which in and of itself may have prevented the damage on my 00. I also had the 3.05 final drive ratio on the 2000 which was a rare option that came with the gran touring package. Although I enjoyed the added performance and handling so much I found an 04 that also had the Y56 package.

The biggest problem though is that for a simple failure the repair work is outrageous. Getting to the 3-4 clutch and hub requires removal of the side pan, valve body and channel plate, as well as the drive chain and sprockets on the 4t65e. Only then can the hub get pulled out of its position in the input sun gear. I chose to attempt a full rebuild because when I got in there I was finding steel shards all over the place. The 4th gear clutch hub itself costs about 35 bucks at most, but labor to replace it would be in excess of 1200. Lol, the hardened part seems to hold up well though. Ive done the same difficult drive three times now in my 2004 and I also did it once more after the rebuild in my 2000 with no problem.

In 2003 though, GM upgraded a number of troublesome features on the 4t65e transmission and improved some minor things on the LeSabre as well. The 2002 model incorporates virtually no updates from 2000 when they re-designed the LeSabre. In 2003 they revamped the car and tweaked a few things that were causing common complaints. Bottom line is that my 2004 has been 2x more reliable and sturdy than my 2000 ever was. The dash rattles are virtually gone, suspension clunking issue is non existent, transmission feels much better and the fuel economy is better.

If you're in the market I would recomend getting a good used 2003 from a GM dealer and purchasing the GMPP major gaurd warrenty, which gives you full warrenty coverage beyond the basic 100k powertrain. The dealer has made good on my warrenty a number of times, I particularly like it because its not some bogus aftermarket warrenty, its a policy written by general motors.

Now hat's alot of valuable information. Thanks for sharing.

[GringoPete]

Originally Posted by polarzak

My 2000 has been wonderful. It has had NONE of the problems mentioned,
such as transmission clutch or the widow regulator problems. In fact, only the plugs and wires have been changed, and tires and I believe (not sure as my wife drives it) it has about 200k on it. It a beautiful car, superb on the highway, and has been absolutely trouble free from day one.
My Buick Lucerne (which replaced the Park Avenue and LeSaber) on the other had, is a piece of junk. Stay the heck away from them.

Yeah, when i see the Lucerne or LaCrosse I think to myself that it's an imitation of a Japanese car with a Buick emblem. It's just not Buick enough for me. I'll stick to the used Lesabres/Park Avenues .

[Robdaparamedic]

I got a '02 for $4100, it had 108K on it and a brand new set of tread on it. Let's face it, whatever car you buy it's eventually going to have problems. I wouldn't pay that much for any car but I'm butt broke and can't afford to pay attention. I changed wire/plugs and fuel injector gaskets. The reason I got it so cheap was, the temp sensor ($11.95) was leaking and the guy thought it was a head gasket.

Rob

[GringoPete]

Originally Posted by Robdaparamedic

I got a '02 for $4100, it had 108K on it and a brand new set of tread on it. Let's face it, whatever car you buy it's eventually going to have problems. I wouldn't pay that much for any car but I'm butt broke and can't afford to pay attention. I changed wire/plugs and fuel injector gaskets. The reason I got it so cheap was, the temp sensor ($11.95) was leaking and the guy thought it was a head gasket.

Rob

LOL.....Good deal .

I dont like having monthly car payments myself so i just buy used cars for cash and get car insurance without collision coverage.

[pcmos]

Please don't take it the wrong way, I wasn't saying my 00 was a bad car, it had issues mainly because I drive these cars much harder than most people. I love to drive some of the hardest roads I can find in difficult conditions. When I have the chance to travel I sit down and plot out interesting routes and take road trips. I'm also a "spirited" driver and I performed a large number of modifications on my 00 and now on my 04 that add to the excitement of driving an otherwise boring car. Unfortunately that means I'm always going to bring out the worst of the vehicle. All I'm saying is that my 00 seemed to respond to my tampering with more problems than my 04. I modified the front and rear sway bars and mounts so the car rides significantly stiffer which tends to result in more interior rattles. I also run W rated bridgestone tires that have extremely stiff sidewalls for improved handling. On the 00 I set up a custom dual exhaust system which added about 30hp according to my software. I also gasket matched all the intake runners and added an L26 aluminum upper intake to both cars. The transmission is being pushed to it's limits, since the LeSabre doesn't come stock with the heavy duty version. Then to add insult to injury I drove the 00 on highway 550 in colorado with at least a thousand pounds of stuff in the car and forgot to take it out of overdrive. I still love driving the LeSabre, even if I were forced to stick with a totally stock configuration I would still enjoy it. I just wanted to mention that there were some minor improvements in 03 and if I were in the market for a used LeSabre I would want to push beyond 02 to try and take advantage of some of the tweaks and updates from GM.

If you're interested in improved handling and takeoff power, remember to shop around for a used LeSabre that has the Y56 "gran touring" package. On the 00 - 02 they came with the special rims that had exposed lug nuts. I found out on the 03 - 05 they didn't have unique rims, I had to check the option list on the spare tire cover in the trunk to verify that my 04 included the Y56 package. It just provides larger front and rear sway bars as well as the magnasteer variable assist rack and pinion and the 3.05 final drive ratio.

BTW I agree with whoever made the comments about the Lucernce, I won't entirely bag on it but if I'm looking at 40k+ luxury sedans with stiff bucket seats and a narrow cockpit type of cramped interior I'm going to be shopping other brands. Buick had something unique all these years, they could have improved handling and power without trashing the charm of the Buick style. I've rented Lucernes on two separate occasions and I've driven a number of the "next generation" GM vehicles and I'm disappointed so far. I still want to reserve judgement until I get a chance to drive the 08 CTS, but I'm feeling ready to switch to a japanese or european brand for my next car.

On a side note, has anybody else noticed that the newer GM vehicles with large wheels seem to have a strange bounce or hop in the steering when you corner aggresively? I mentioned it to my friend who just bought an 08 impala LTZ and he agreed. The Lucerne has the same sort of awkward feel when you take a hard turn. It may be a symptom of installing large wheels without proper consideration for the steering design to accompany them. I'm also not quite sure I understand why the Lucerne is so much heavier than the LeSabre and is seemingly much more cramped inside. It's vastly underpowered with the 3800 motor in my opinion, but if anything they've removed some features that the LeSabre had as options. Given the Lucerne is still riding on the same platform, I would think it should be lighter. The 00 - 05 LeSabre gets better fuel economy with the same engine.

[polarzak]

Originally Posted by pcmos

On a side note, has anybody else noticed that the newer GM vehicles with large wheels seem to have a strange bounce or hop in the steering when you corner aggresively? I mentioned it to my friend who just bought an 08 impala LTZ and he agreed. The Lucerne has the same sort of awkward feel when you take a hard turn. It may be a symptom of installing large wheels without proper consideration for the steering design to accompany them. I'm also not quite sure I understand why the Lucerne is so much heavier than the LeSabre and is seemingly much more cramped inside. It's vastly underpowered with the 3800 motor in my opinion, but if anything they've removed some features that the LeSabre had as options. Given the Lucerne is still riding on the same platform, I would think it should be lighter. The 00 - 05 LeSabre gets better fuel economy with the same engine.

Yes, my Lucerne does bounce/hop when cornering aggressively. I have gotten used to it and the car's other shortcomings. I disagree with your statement "still riding the same platform" The Lurcene is built on the Cadillac
DTS platform, entirely different than the 00 to 05 LeSabre. FYI

[pcmos]

Actually from all the literature I can check (and I just confirmed to make sure) the Lucernce and DTS are still running the H-body platform. I know this must be true because i've cross checked the sway bar geometry when I was thinking about trying to locate sway bars for the lucerne to use on my lesabre. GM was talking up a lot of hype about two new zeta cars before coming out with lucerne and dts, but that never happened. There may be some slight modifications to the platform from the LeSabre/Bonneville/DeVille generation but its virtually identical. I would have to stick my head under the lucerne to confirm and compare to the lesabre, but they should be virtually identical in configuration.

[pcmos]

From 00-05, LeSabre, Deville & Bonneville were all on essentially the same platform. Remember GM stuck the Northstar V8 configuration from the Deville into the Bonneville GXP before killing it off. They didn't have to jump through too many hoops to do that because the configuration of the bonneville was so similar to the Deville anyway. Then in 06 they killed off any hopes of more H-body cars and you just have the DTS and Lucerne left over.

[Clinton70]

what was the mileage when you guys had this 00-02 tranny problems? I'm at 68k, fluid looks good but probably in the future with money, my car-mechanic buddy and I will probably look at the tran.

[GringoPete]

Originally Posted by Clinton70

what was the mileage when you guys had this 00-02 tranny problems? I'm at 68k, fluid looks good but probably in the future with money, my car-mechanic buddy and I will probably look at the tran.

Eventually everyone with the this transmission develops this problem. Trann fluid has nothing to do with it as the problem is the PCS - Power Control Selenoid. Roughly a $600 job as it is labor intensive.