99 windstar still chugging really bad.. Help please

Mom2boyzz · #1 10-12-2008, 10:17 PM

Hi guys,

I'm starting a new thread, trying to get some additional help!

My 99 windstar was misfiring, and it started all of a sudden on the highway.
Thankfully, many of you wonderful people have given me many suggestions.

SO, we've followed your advice so far... we (well...my husband doing the work, me being the beautiful assistant of course

)

He has..
Changed spark plugs, done an oil change (using a bottle of that engine flush stuff), new fuel filter, cleaned egr ports, and put STP extra strength fuel system cleaner in the gas tank. (We couldn't find the Berrymans.. do they not sell it in Canada? (We're in southwestern Ontario) We couldn't find it anywhere) He checked all the vacuum lines and all ok.
He's planning to change the spark plug wires as well, but we have to wait til Tuesday til they're in stock.

The van is still running like crap

. When doing the oil change, it was really sludgy (admittedly though, it was well overdue for an oil change, and we recently found out the place we've been taking it to for the last 3 or 4 oil changes uses recycled oil, not new).

I don't know what else to do.. we've sunk quite a bit of money & time into the van now, and it's still not running well... Plus I need to do my etest within the next week or so to renew my plates.... and running like this I'm not confident it will pass.

The engine light is off... no longer comes on while driving, and no longer flashes.. but it's chugging. Really chugging. Accelerates ok, it doesn't stall out at all, but really chugs both at idle & acceleration.

The gas additive was just put in today, so we're hoping maybe if I take it for a good spin tomorrow, it might work its way through and clean it up a bit..

Can anyone help me as to what to do next, or what else could be the problem? I don't want to keep sinking money into this thing when nothing is working.

BTW.. the EGR ports were REALLY gucky.
One of my hubbys buddys were over, and said he thinks my head gasket is gone when looking at the oil with the sludgey stuff. That gave me a mini-panic attack.. is this a possibility? The van has NEVER overheated, and never does the temp guage go over the 1/2 way mark. No white smoke, no "sweet smell" type symptoms I've found online.

Please help.. I'm not sure what else to do other than trash it, but it's not even paid off yet.

Thanks again to everyone who can help.

LeSabre97mint · #2 10-13-2008, 09:35 AM

Mom2boyzz

Well....we're making progress. No CEL. The EGR ports cleaned, oil changed, fuel filter changed. These are all regular manitance items.

Have you read Wiswinds write up (the posts at the top of this forum) on the KNOWN problems with the windstars?

First off, the fact that there's no CEL and the engine is running poorly troubles me! Does the CEL light come on when the key is turned on but the engine isn't running? There may be codes even w/o a CEL light. Do you have a code reader?

I think a compression test is in order just to rule out any mechanical problems. This would be a good thing to do when the sparkplug wires are being replaced since it involves removing all of the sparkplugs. Let us know if you need more information on a compression test.

I'm leaning towards the ignition coil. This is a known failure item. The insulation coating starts to crack and the coil goes bad. When this happens spark doesn't get to the sparkplugs.

Now, as to headgaskets. They were a problem on 95 Windstars. On 96 and newer Ws the lower intake manifold gaskets are the trouble makers. Do you go through antifreeze? Are you having to add antifreeze on a regular bases? This isn't normal if you are. It's going somewhere. Lower intake manifold gaskets can leak antifreeze in to the engine. I know that I need to replace mine on my 98.

I'm sending you a PM.

Is there anyone near these good people that could give them a helping hand? Let's help them get to the bottom of this issue.

Regards

Dan

FordGuy81 · #3 10-13-2008, 09:36 AM

From what you describe, I would think the headgasket is fine. Your coolant level would be dropping if the headgasket was leaking. A compression test would verfiy.

Our '99 Windstar started running badly one day just like you described. I was driving down the highway, everything was fine, and then in an instant it started running very rough and the CEL was blinking. That day I just erased the code and it drove fine for a long time. However, it came back recently. I had a misfire code for the #2 cylinder (P0302). Turned out the van had a failed injector.

Anyway this is what I would look at doing based on what I have read here on this forum recently what I know about cars:

Plug Wires: I would use Motorcraft wires.

Coil Pack: A bad coil pack can cause the promblems you are having. On my Windstar, it wasn't bad, but I replaced it anyway since it is in hard to reach place and I already had everything torn part.

Isolator Bolts: Check this forum for info on doing this. It is a straight forward job. Remove the wiper cowl from the van and it will give you a lot more room.

Fuel Injectors: After removing the upper intake (the black plastic peices), the fuel rail is held on with (4) 8mm or 10mm bolts. There is a valve on the front of the fuel rail facing the front, looks like a tire valve. Put a rag underneath it and use a something to push in the center of the valve. Fuel WILL spray out. That is why the rag should be there to soak up the fuel as it comes out. After the fuel pressure is relieved, just pull up on the fuel rail and the injectors will pop out of the engine. Check each one for crud buildup. You can clean them with brake cleaner. Each fuel injector has its own connector to the main harness. Pull off the connector and using a multimeter set to Ohms, check the ohms of the injector by putting a probe on each terminal of the injector. Check the ohms value on the multimeter against what the manual reads that it should be. When putting the fuel injectors back into the engine, put a SMALL amount of new engine oil around the rubber O-ring on the bottom of the injector. This will help it go back in and avoid tearing the O-ring.

Our Windstar had a dead injector. If you do find one to be defective, it may not be a normally stocked item at your local parts store. I would start with the injector that is located on the cylinder that gave you the misfire code.

Mom2boyzz · #4 10-13-2008, 09:44 AM

Hi guys,

The reason they thought it was the head gasket was because when they drained the oil, it filled & overflowed a 9L drain pan.

I've never had a problem running low on coolant.. but when they checked the antifreeze yesterday, it was empty... and he had just added some about 2wks ago. The van really hasn't moved much in the last 2wks.

I'm afraid to continue spending more and more $$ on this thing, and then find out my head gasket is gone, and have flushed all this money down the toilet.

The sludge in the oil was brown.. like melted chocolate.

If we're looking at a coil pack, anyone know how much $ they are, or if there is a way to tell if its bad.

Thanks again

Mom2boyzz · #5 10-13-2008, 09:48 AM

Oh... and Dan... no the CEL light stays off... doesn't come on at all, even when the van is not running.

FordGuy81 · #6 10-13-2008, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeSabre97mint

Mom2boyzz

Well....we're making progress. No CEL. The EGR ports cleaned, oil changed, fuel filter changed. These are all regular manitance items.

Have you read Wiswinds write up (the posts at the top of this forum) on the KNOWN problems with the windstars?

First off, the fact that there's no CEL and the engine is running poorly troubles me! Does the CEL light come on when the key is turned on but the engine isn't running? There may be codes even w/o a CEL light. Do you have a code reader?

I think a compression test is in order just to rule out any mechanical problems. This would be a good thing to do when the sparkplug wires are being replaced since it involves removing all of the sparkplugs. Let us know if you need more information on a compression test.

I'm leaning towards the ignition coil. This is a known failure item. The insulation coating starts to crack and the coil goes bad. When this happens spark doesn't get to the sparkplugs.

Now, as to headgaskets. They were a problem on 95 Windstars. On 96 and newer Ws the lower intake manifold gaskets are the trouble makers. Do you go through antifreeze? Are you having to add antifreeze on a regular bases? This isn't normal if you are. It's going somewhere. Lower intake manifold gaskets can leak antifreeze in to the engine. I know that I need to replace mine on my 98.

I'm sending you a PM.

Is there anyone near these good people that could give them a helping hand? Let's help them get to the bottom of this issue.

Regards

Dan

The CEL will not always light when a fault occurs. You need a code reader to scan the engine. A fault code could be 'pending', meaning that the computer has noticed a problem and will monitor the fault to see if clears up. If the fault does clear up after a certain time period or number of drive cycles , the computer will set the CEL.

Mom2boyzz,

Do you know anyone with a code reader that would let you use it? I bought a mediocre one for $130.00 recently. It is a necessary tool for diagnosing todays engines. I willing to bet you have a misfire, a code reader will tell you which cylinder is misfiring (unless it's a random misfire, P0300).

Let us know how you make out.

Bill

On Edit: LeSabre97mint, sorry. I just reread you post where you already stated that there could be codes w/o a CEL.

Mom2boyzz · #7 10-13-2008, 09:55 AM

Bill.... Yes, a friend has a code reader, we're trying to get a hold of him, its difficult as this is Thanksgiving weekend, and no one is around.

Even with the light off, with the reader tell us whats wrong with the van?

LeSabre97mint · #8 10-13-2008, 09:57 AM

MOM

I'm thinking your bulb for your CEL is burnt out. It should come on when the key is turned on. Do any lights come on when the key is turned on? The lights (some of the lights are: brake, CEL, & oil) should come on as a "bulb check" when the key is turned on.

Dan

Mom2boyzz · #9 10-13-2008, 10:02 AM

Dan.... Oh, yeah the light does that.. It comes on when starting up, but I mean it doesn't STAY on.

Sorry about that.
Lyndsay

FordGuy81 · #10 10-13-2008, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mom2boyzz

Oh... and Dan... no the CEL light stays off... doesn't come on at all, even when the van is not running.

Dan means when you turn the key to the 'on' position with out starting the engine, does the check engine light come on? The light is supposed to come on as a system self check and then go out after the engine has been started.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mom2boyzz

Bill.... Yes, a friend has a code reader, we're trying to get a hold of him, its difficult as this is Thanksgiving weekend, and no one is around.

Even with the light off, with the reader tell us whats wrong with the van?

Yes. Turn the key to the on position and plug the code reader in. The plugin for the code reader is located directly beneath the steering wheel on the bottom of the dash. The key must be on to power the code reader. If there are any codes present, the code reader will give them to you, probably as 'pending' codes. If there are no codes, the code reader will tell you 'system pass'.

Also, has the computer been reset at all? If so, it takes time for the computer to set the codes again, i.e after a certain amount of drive cycles.

Bill

Mom2boyzz · #11 10-13-2008, 10:17 AM

Yes, the light does light up for that "self check" but then goes back off.

How do we reset the computer, is it just disconnecting the battery for a few minutes? If so, we just went outside to do that after you suggested it...

I'm not sure if thats the right way to do it though

lol
Thx
Lyndsay

FordGuy81 · #12 10-13-2008, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mom2boyzz

Hi guys,

The reason they thought it was the head gasket was because when they drained the oil, it filled & overflowed a 9L drain pan.

I've never had a problem running low on coolant.. but when they checked the antifreeze yesterday, it was empty... and he had just added some about 2wks ago. The van really hasn't moved much in the last 2wks.

I'm afraid to continue spending more and more $$ on this thing, and then find out my head gasket is gone, and have flushed all this money down the toilet.

The sludge in the oil was brown.. like melted chocolate.

If we're looking at a coil pack, anyone know how much $ they are, or if there is a way to tell if its bad.

Thanks again

I pesonally would not take my vehicle where they use recycled engine oil. Sounds like you just found out about it though. I don't have any experience with recycled oil, but that could be why it looks like that. Even new oil will eventually turn brown or black after being in an engine for awhile. Esentially it is burnt and has lost its lubricating/cooling abilities.

9L is quite a bit (probably close to double) of oil to drain out. Is it possible that the engine was overfilled with oil.

A compression check on all cylinders should be done if you suspect antifreeze getting into the oil. Cylinder pressures should be within ~10% of each other. I make sure that someone you trust do this so that you're not sold work you don't need (a lot of work).

A code reader can give you codes specific to a coil pack malfuction, such as a secondary or primary circuit falt. A coil pack can run $60.00 to ~ $120.00 depending on where you purchase it and what brand it is.

I use http://www.rockauto.com a lot for auto parts. They have good prices on their parts.

Bill

FordGuy81 · #13 10-13-2008, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mom2boyzz

Yes, the light does light up for that "self check" but then goes back off.

How do we reset the computer, is it just disconnecting the battery for a few minutes? If so, we just went outside to do that after you suggested it...

I'm not sure if thats the right way to do it though

lol
Thx
Lyndsay

Sorry, I did not mean to suggest resetting the computer. I was pointing out hat if it had been reset, the codes would be lost and it will take some time before the computers reports them again. You will need to start the engine and let it go through a couple of drive cycles before the computer will set the fault codes again.

A drive cycle can be done by starting the engine and letting it idle to warm up, and then driving around a bit. When the engine is running, the computer uses montiors in the system to get feed back information from various sensors and systems. When a system or sensor reports information back to the computer that is out of certain parameters, the computer issues a fault code. You may be able to just get away with letting the engine idle for about 15 minutes or so. Keep the code reader plugged into the data port under the dash. You can read continously check for codes while the engine is running.

Now that the computer has been reset, how is the engine running?

Bill

Mom2boyzz · #14 10-13-2008, 10:37 AM

Bill....

Hubby said he wanted to try to reset the computer anyway... I'm not sure why.

He just started it back up and no change in the way it's running.

Another question, if we take it for a spin today, and let that fuel cleaner he put in the gas tank work its way through, will that make a difference?

Is it worth it to go ahead and get the spark plug wires? DH said they looked fine, but doesn't know if there's something we can't see.

FordGuy81 · #15 10-13-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mom2boyzz

Bill....

Hubby said he wanted to try to reset the computer anyway... I'm not sure why.

He just started it back up and no change in the way it's running.

Another question, if we take it for a spin today, and let that fuel cleaner he put in the gas tank work its way through, will that make a difference?

Is it worth it to go ahead and get the spark plug wires? DH said they looked fine, but doesn't know if there's something we can't see.

The fuel cleaner will probably not make a difference at this point. If the engine troubles are related to a clogged fuel injector, then at this point it is probably to clogged up to be cleaned in that manner, if that is the issue.

How long has the plug wires been on the van? If they are the original ones or have been on there for a very long time, I would replace them. When it is dark out, start the engine and see if you notice any arcing coming from the plug wires. If the wires are arcing, you will be able to see at it night. Try not to have any other light sources nearby when check for this.

Plug wires can develop tiny cracks in the insulation that cause them to arc. Basically the spark that should be going to the spark plug, leaves the wire through these cracks and will jump to anything metal under the hood. This can cause misfires, lack of performace, and poor fuel mileage. If the wires look fine and/or are fairly new, they are probably fine.

Bill

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