Vacuum leak 171-174 and more!

[win3.8]

Hi' I am new here I need some real Tech help. this will be a long one so please bare with me. I have a 2000 windstar 3.8 I have had code 171 & 174 for 8 years I bought it new the code started at 2500 miles under warranties dealer replaced oxygen sensors several times till my 3 year warranty was up never a drive problem just an engine light and code but no drive problem for 8 years 1 month ago I parked and noticed a Small drip on right side passenger side looked like it was coming from water pump. I sad this is going to be a job, so the next morning I pulled the car in my driveway still running good let it warm up to see wear the leak was coming from after a few minutes there is a black pipe coming out of the top of the water pump about 4 inches up a small pin hole wear the water was coming from I was relieved. what happened next ed should never be done the way I did this I drained the radiator removed the bold holding the tubbing to the pump, not knowing there was another bolt at the other end and not opening my Haynes manual I used a long screw driver to pry it up and snapped the cam position sensor in half I kind of knew it was gonna happen. Well after that happen I got the tubbing loose bumping every hose in the back of the engine .. not enough light so I was looking at a site on the INTERNET and there was a guy you may already have seen his web site about fixing the TBS for the 171-174 problem well wile I had this apart I decided to do it also I checked and I did have the old stile valve cover so I bought the kit on e-bay new silver valve cover and isolator bolts with new grommets and gaskets upper and lower so I removed top and bottom plenum also bought the new stile top part it is a one piece wile I had it apart I replaced the other water line that ran under the plenum put it all back together replaced the cam Poisson cap no I did not loosen the synchronizer started the engine .. by the way when I removed the upper and lower Plenum it was dry as could be no trace of oil any wear so when it started engine was shaking back fire ring in the plenum it would rev up and run smooth but from 600 to 1500 pop and miss could not figure what I did wrong checked all vacuum lines tested all vacuum lines removed everything again, new gaskets again back together same problem this time I loosen the CPS did not lift it out just loose it and tried to move it to see if it helped but nothing no new code after running a few minuted I got the 171-174 again it was driving me nuts I went over to ford to talk to a mechanic there so he said try re timing it. a new problem I am doing this by my self hard to be on top and bottom trying to see if I had the #1 piston on TDC he said do not go by the tomming mark just use a screw driver and do it the old way I did not trust it after sanding the balancer I found the marks it was hard to make out there is 11 marks I saw 32 on one end but nothing on the other finely I used a Dial integrator and found TDC by the way it is the middle mark on the balancer so I went and bought a new CPS at napa and drooped it in I still have my doubt about the 54 deg it should be from the center line of Eng ford said as long as it is on TDC when you drop it in and I did use the tool that came with the CPS I used a protractor but it is on an angel he said it looks at the #1 piston and that is how the injectors know when to start it sends a signal to the PCM for reference well I put it in again new gaskets and I also changed to a new isolator grommets I can do this in my sleep start it up sounder good for 1 minute then shaking I cleared the codes with my code reader same thing run fine but idle shake and back fire a few times ..not knowing what to do went back to ford no help said bring it in .. not now at this stage I have to much into it they would have to rip it all down and start from scratch not worth it. well today this is my 6 or 7 tome taking this apart just for reference I replaced TPS-cleaned MAF replaced IAC-EGR and yes I cleaned them when I had the intake off and blow them out with compressed air also changed CPS and DPFE also new Motor craft wires and new plugs There is nothing left and I no it is on right! Start it up same thing this time I took it for a long ride it was smooth as could be grate response from 30 to 60 MPH got back home started to shake had to use brake and gas at same time not to stall. today took it apart oil all over the lower intake yes I have new PCV and tubing I pulled the plugs #1 looked like it was not used and I also changed the coil also all the rest of the plugs were OK do not no what to do at this point so I did a compression check on all cyl 4 cranks each 3-4-5-6- all had 215psi #1 has 150psi ? book says Compression should be 100+ ? I have no room in the garage to pull it apart and I have not did this much work since I did racing but that was 40something years ago I am not up on these new cars but as I am doing it I can see what is happening except my problem unless this compression is causing the problem I don't no if it is sucking the oil up from the bottom I did have one miss fire code I think it was 301 last week but it did not come back there was so much oil in the lower manifold, so if any one has come across this I would appreciate any help I do not think it is any thing I have done except cam timing I don't feel good about it and compression all this from a small water leak I just did to much and can not trace it back to when it started ..Thanks Rich

[jd-autotech]

wow! i know intake a lower intake gasket will do it of even a head gasket its hard to tell with out lookin but with the compression diff. i m thinkin head gasket.

[win3.8]

Originally Posted by jd-autotech

wow! i know intake a lower intake gasket will do it of even a head gasket its hard to tell with out lookin but with the compression diff. i m thinkin head gasket.

Thanks JD I was think that, but no water in oil no oil in rad no bubbles I no the heads have to come off at one point just to tired of messing with ti right now Thanks

[rhandwor]

I would pull the valve cover and check for a bad valve spring first. Use a radiator pressure test gage if a head gasket is blown it will usually pulse the gage. A radiator shop can do a gas analysis and give you a definate analysis.
If you pull the heads get a valve job,pressure test and checked for straightness. Is the vehicle worth this cost?
If everything checks out you can replace a spring by putting some small rope in the cylinder rotate by hand until the valves are held closed.

[wiswind]

I would NOT tear on down into the motor at this point without a direct indication that there is a problem there.
I started wondering about crossed plug wires (I have done that a few times on other vehicles).
However, the fact that it runs OK makes me wonder if that is the case.....does it ever idle smooth?......if not.....we could be back to crossed wires......SUPER easy to do.
The other item that I wonder about is the coil pack....

Yet another item....that I realize that I say over and over.....but it has had me chase my tail more than once with my '96 windstar.......dirty fuel injector.
This is a common problem on our windstars.....and the ONLY thing that I have found that cleans them in vehicle is Berryman's B-12 Chemtool.
Fortunately, this is one of the less expensive fuel system cleaners that you will find on the wall of many cleaners at the part store.
I get the metal can.......I would treat each of the next 2 to 3 tanks of fuel with a can each time.

As I recall....cylinder #1 is kind of hard to get to......but if you DID end up taking that upper intake manifold off again.....you might try the spray version of a cleaner.....remove the fuel injectors and spray the cleaner up inside the end cap.....spray a liberal amount up in...and let it flush the dirt out.
Also....moving the fuel injector from cylinder #1 and putting it in the #4 postion (at least on my '96, I can sneak that injector in and out without removing the upper intake manifold).
The clean spark plug at #1 leads me to think that it is not getting fuel.....which a dirty injector will cause.
Fuel and no spark....would leave you with a wet/dirty plug.

Again.....I have gone crazy trying to track down a rough idle / miss a few times.....and have ended up back at dirty (not defective) fuel injectors each time.
This is after new plugs, wires, coil pack.....and on and on.
I did not feel so bad changing these things out.....as my vehicle is older.....with many miles.....and I likely would have needed to do this at some point (just over 200K miles on it).
However......just about the cheapest and easiest solution ended up being the real solution.

So...I would look in this direction.

[win3.8]

Hi and thanks to both replies, as for checking the valve spring.. it a good thought I have the valance wear the wipers are located so I have easy access and I will pull the intake again then check that could be one reason for the compression dif. on #1 Cyl I still have my doubt on the head gasket right now because #2 Cyl is at 215psi and if it were blown something would give me an indication like that cyl loosing if it were bleeding to #1 or oil in water and the other way around, but not knowing this engine that good there could be a open port in the head that I am overlooking that could leak and not be visible ..don't forget last time I messed with engine was my 1962 409 425hp (smile) so the valve might explain also on the 2nd post it was mentioned Coil and wires I have new coil and wires I checked them but if the wires are like the book says 1-4-2-5-3-6 coil is in back of engine with conector looking at left driver side so I have -------
5-1
6-2 >left
4-3

Front
I will check but it is possible trouble is compression on #1Cyl at 140 or 150psi with all the rest at 215 as for Rad shop not wear I am from (smile) just a few guys that can solder that it I do have a rad tester dating back to the sixties if the rubber has not dried up I might check for the pulse ..reasion I left that and head out because it ran so good till I took all apart, in thinking back to when I first got it running I had so Big back fires that could have done something special id I had the cam sensor in wrong letting it put gas in wrong Cyl at wrong time ..I am not gona do it this week but will keep you posted on what I find ..and no it has not ideled right since I did thr repair.. Thanks again to all ..Rich

[wiswind]

Since I posted.......I am back to thinking of a plug wire the wrong place.
The symptoms sound just like a couple of other people had.
It seems to be fine except at idle.....
What has me looking this way is your mention of firing back up into the intake.

To check the valves for cylinder #1.....the best way that I can think of is to remove the windshield wiper cowel.....and remove the rear valve cover.
This will enable you to see the valve stems, springs and rocker arms.....
However, I would hold off on that and very meticulously verify the plug wires are going the right places.
This is SUPER easy to mess up....and is more likely than a valve rocker, spring. etc from suddenly acting up.

Take this from someone who has been down the plug wire road before.....and it is certainly not easy to see what you are doing on the back side of this motor.

[bulrid8]

Also, Make sure the plu wire is pushed on all the way. sometimes they don't seat right.

[win3.8]

Originally Posted by bulrid8

Also, Make sure the plu wire is pushed on all the way. sometimes they don't seat right.

Thanks again everyone' I no the plug wire seams to be on most people mind, and I agree I would say the same and there is the remote chance that I have put it on wrong even though I have did it 7 or 8 times on this fix. I am going to check it tomorrow just to make sure, but the cyl psi difference is one cause fore idle problem and yes I left the cowling off just because I have been redoing this and its not going back till its running right. one post said is it worth fixing for the most part if I bought it used I would say NO!, but I bought this New in 2000 for 32000.00 I no! and it is in grate cosmetic conduction it is a SEL with all options so that is one reason other is I have built many race engines years ago and something this simple is driving me " a little Nuts" seams like I forgot everything if this engine came out the top it would be out already. but it seams like a real pain to remove from the bottom. so in my thinking even if I had the wire wrong , yes it would cause a misfire, but with the cyl psi being off from 140 to 215 there is something that I need to find the more I think the more I think I did something wrong with the Cam position sys and that mad the injector timing off and I still may have it wrong but I will check all of the wire issue and valve spring first before I go deeper if I have a cracked ring there is no way it would be worth it to fix in the car I would just get a good salvage engine ..I hate Rebuilt never had good luck many cut to many corners I would just buy a factory short block but I hope that is not in my future I hope I did not leave anyone out. but compression and cam timing are on my list of worries then maybe head gasket Thanks again Rich

[CnlK]

Just wondering if you have the camshaft synchro 180 degrees out of time, that is at TDC exhaust instead of compression. On my 2000, the rotating vane is just approaching the "window" at #1 TDC compression, if you have the alignment tool it should drop into place. The compression difference is suspicious, were you able to duplicate the results. What about the old trick of squirting a little oil into the cylinder & repeating the test, if compression value rises after oil addition the rings are suspect, if no change valves are suspect. A very rough engine at idle could also be a vacuum leak, double check all hoses, maybe one got bumped loose.

[win3.8]

Hi' at one point when I first did the repair I might have had it out 180, but I had the compression gauge on #1 cyl and it was on compression stroke and I had the tool on and I had the dial ind also so I no that part is right now may be to late, but it is in right yes I no about the oil in the cyl and I just did not go any firther since I did the compression check guess Idid not want more bad news (smile) kidding they are all things I need to do now that I saw the psi differance also I still have to get it in my head about the 54 deg that they want the CPS to be with relationship to the centerline of the eng. Thanks Rich

[CnlK]

I wouldn't be overly concerned about that 54 degree from center line of engine. Was the sensor in approximately the same position as the orginal?
It shouldn't really matter where it is pointing as long as the alignment tool will drop into position on the synchro when #1 is at TDC compression. On my 2000, the rotating vane in the synchro approaches the "window" in the synchro housing at #1 TDC compression. (this is visible when the sensor on top of the synchro is removed) Aren't the timing marks on the dampner very faint, had to scuff with sandpaper just to find and then there weren't any numbers.

[win3.8]

Hi yes I had the tool on and when you remove it the vain is almost in the middle I checked this several times I even bought a better tool then the one that came with the camshaft synchro and it was in the same location, but I never marked it before removing it my mistake I no I had it in wrong a few times that is when I had more backfire than now. when i removed the lower plumin it was loaded with oil probaly being sucked in and not helping matters also I did not mention when I was testing it I could remove several small vac lines with no change only if I removed the pcv line or brake booster line the eng would stall ..I no it sounds like a large vacume leak, but the bottom and top are on right flat and tourked its coming from below manifold Thanks Rich

[win3.8]

just remembered there is 11 marks on the balancer and yes you have to sand them to see also there is a # 32 at one end there is another # at the other end but I could not make it out the center line on the grupe is the TDC mark

[wiswind]

Once you have double (tripple) checked the plug wires, and all the vaccum lines (vaccum leak will be worse at idle also), double check that the IMRC is working......with all the linkage intact.
It is common on the newer windstars for this to become disconnected.

One would think, to check the valves for cylinder #1, that you could remove the rear valve cover and have someone crank the motor (not start it) while you watch the valves with a flashlight.

Another thing to do.....when it is dark, run the engine and look to see if there are any sparks from the plug wires, etc.

I am having a hard time jumping to the rings, as this suddenly came up while you are working on the vehicle.
Also....I don't seem to remember any posts about the rings going bad.