Air to Liquid Intercoolers

[NewyorkKopter]

sweet

[jupilerman]

I´m facing the same problem here. Mid engine layout and no space.
One option is to install an air/air intercooler in the wheelarche, parallel to the wheel (not behind or in front of it) . The wheel induces turbulance that will hopefully create some airflow through the IC. But I have no idea about IC efficiency on this setup (60%?).

another option is the " air/water/(charge)air" IC. having a prerad at the front and some deevious plumping to the back.
One question for blacklotus(esprit;-) how can you calculate the volume/flow of water needed. I know it has to do with the time period the engine is fed with charge air being low. That calculation would result in the fact that you do or don´t require a water reservoir.

cheers,
david.

[Reed]

http://hassproturbo.com/catalog/prod...stageII-01.jpg

that is where many many people put an air to air intorcooler in an MR-2 Spyder. I dont know if that would work on an MG.

[Black Lotus]

Originally Posted by jupilerman

how can you calculate the volume/flow of water needed. I know it has to do with the time period the engine is fed with charge air being low. That calculation would result in the fact that you do or don´t require a water reservoir.

cheers,
david.

Never considered using just a reservoir. In fact, with all the tubing , front radiator, etc. all that IS the reservoir. About 2 gallons worth.
I wanted a sytem that would function for long periods of time (hours, if need be) under bursts of full throttle.
If you only have a reservoir, and no proper set of radiators to get rid of the heat in the water, you better only have short runs in mind.
Here's what Bell says in his book- MAXIMUM BOOST---"A pump capability of 10 gallons per minute will move 2.5 gallons in 15 seconds; thus, the ideal size of the reservoir is 2.5 gallons." Since Bell has his head wedged into the 1/4 mile scene, that makes sense. But the higher volume pump you put in, the faster the heated water will end up back at the chargecooler,... but it will remove more heat in the first place.
At any rate, I chose my pump by "similarity". There ARE a few pumps out there commercially, for my application that claim better more consistant performance than the stock Jabsco pump.
Here's one, and has 4 GPM flow installed.
http://www.wcengineering.com/esprit/pump.html
Welch is a smart guy, he also works on MR2s if that is what you got.
I believe the pump in my car was aftermarket for somebodys supercharged truck, (Lightning?). It's been plugging away back there for so long now I forgot who made it....
It's nice to poop along in summer in-town traffic for an hour, get home, and feel the chargecooler sitting on top of the hot engine-- and it's cool to the touch.

[jupilerman]

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

Never considered using just a reservoir.

I thought of a reservoir in combination with the front pre-radiator. To make sure as Bell says, that during boost, the water doesn´t see the charge air twice.
Although I never thought of the fact corky bell focusses on 1/4mi. Knowing this, I can see why he wrote the above*LOL* Good book though. Any more literature suggestions?

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

In fact, with all the tubing , front radiator, etc. all that IS the reservoir. About 2 gallons worth.

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

I wanted a sytem that would function for long periods of time (hours, if need be) under bursts of full throttle.

So the water pump stays on all the time? It is not triggered by charge air temp? (~winter time)

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

http://www.wcengineering.com/esprit/pump.html

Just what I need, a reasonably priced electric water pump ;-)
Thanks for that

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

he also works on MR2s if that is what you got.

this is my car:
http://dennis.core-lan.nl/mgf/album46
´99 MG F with Rover K-series engine not approved for US market :-(
So no replacement for the ever beloved MG B´s. But now the chinese have taken over Rover, they intend to put in VW/AUDI´s 1.8(T) powerplant, wich AFAIK has been (emissionwise) approved for the US market. Or they could do as Lotus did and put the Toyota lump in the car (Elise in this case). Have it turbocharged by US-based Force Fed company.

Cheers,

[CBFryman]

Liquid Intercoolers are good because you can literlaly put ice water into them.

[Black Lotus]

Originally Posted by jupilerman

So the water pump stays on all the time? It is not triggered by charge air temp? (~winter time)
Cheers,

No, the pump runs all the time the ignition is on (per Bells suggestion).
It's been whirring away for a year or so now. You can just barely hear it running with the engine off, so it's very quiet. Verify what the inlet and outlet fitting size is on the pumps you look at. They do vary in size...
I think Bell has a new book out, but I don't know anything about it.

[beyondloadedSE]

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

No, the pump runs all the time the ignition is on (per Bells suggestion).
It's been whirring away for a year or so now. You can just barely hear it running with the engine off, so it's very quiet. Verify what the inlet and outlet fitting size is on the pumps you look at. They do vary in size...
I think Bell has a new book out, but I don't know anything about it.

mine is the same way. When the ignition is on, the pump circulates the water.

[NewyorkKopter]

wait, so what exactly do you need in an air to liquid intercooling system?
So far I have
-The Intercooler itself
-Water Pump
-Radiator

Is that all you need for an air to liquid intercooling system to work properly?
Also these intercoolers do not need constant fresh outside air to work right?

[jupilerman]

that´s basically it. Some add fuse and temp relay for the pump to kick in.
Most wire it to fuel pump electrics, so it is allways on when the motor´son.

My question, how do you determine the size of the pre rad cooler?
10 row oil cooler maybe

[beyondloadedSE]

Originally Posted by NewyorkKopter

wait, so what exactly do you need in an air to liquid intercooling system?
So far I have
-The Intercooler itself
-Water Pump
-Radiator

Is that all you need for an air to liquid intercooling system to work properly?
Also these intercoolers do not need constant fresh outside air to work right?

youll probably need a water resevoir as well. Dont forget all the misc. hoses.

[NewyorkKopter]

yea true. Like the wiring, hoses, brackets. etc

One last thing, does the radiator need outside air to work properly?

[beef_bourito]

as long as the air surrounding the radiator is cool enough to prevent the engine from overheating it's fine. you don't need outside air, but it deffinately helps. on a smaller car that doesn't run at wot alot it's ok to have it with at least a constant flow of somewhat cool air, fo a high performance vehicle running at wot and reving high and whatnot, it's necessary to have a constant flow of outside air.

[NewyorkKopter]

true true

[fasteddy427]

If the car has a/c, why not use the a/c system to chill the water/antifreeze in the holding tank to as cold as the antifreeze is good for. Use a lectrovalve on the freon system actuated by a temp sensor in the tank. Use a pump acutated by a temp sensor in the i/c water core to circulate the chilled water. After all, heat energy transfer is best when the temp diff is highest, if I disremember my thermogodamics right...

With good i/c efficiency and great temp diff, you could get the charge temp well below ambient air temps. You might have a problem with throttle body icing, though, but I bet mo' boost would cure that...

This would be a VERY compact system for the mid engine crowd, and most of the freon hardware could be robbed from a dual air minivan, I bet.