Just making sure I'm not missing something

[defiant79]

Today I had a new issue turn its head about. I took the van for a drive (showing it to a friend who hadn't seen it yet), and about a mile down the road, the van started to miss out a bit and the check engine light began to blink. Had a code scanner hooked to it and its reporting lean on bank 1 and misfire condition on Cylinder 6. I'm thinking of changing the plugs and plug wires this weekend since it needs done, I just don't have a lot of extra cash flow right now to get a full blown tuneup done.

Is there anything else I should maybe look for on this, I plan to examine the vacuum lines to be sure I didn't miss something when we did the valve cover stuff.

Thanks again guys!

[96wWindstar180K]

defiant79
Need more information. Engine size miles. Lots of things to check, fuel filter vacume line cracked or falling off. Spark plugs, wires, pcv, coil. You need to eliminate some things first and give more info.

[wiswind]

Plugs, wires, fuel filter, maybe coil pack.

For spark plugs, get the Motorcraft or Autolite double platinumn that is listed for your vehicle.
Say away from all other plugs.

Fuel filter, my '96 needs a special tool to slide up inside the crome fitting to release the clips.
The fitting size is 5/16".....
I bought a set of the fuel line release tools for about $10
They are plastic sleeves that slide up inside the fitting.
I used the 3/8" tool.
The crome fitting end also has a metal "backup" clip.
The other end of the fuel filter uses a "duck bill" clip to hold it in place.
Best to get a replacement filter with new "duck bill" clip(s) as the OE ones may be brittle by this time.

The clogged EGR ports normally causes the misfire on cylinder(s) 3 and/or 4, so I would think it less likely.

I would certainly get a couple cans of Berryman's B-12 Chemtool...(metal can).
Treat the next several tanks of gasoline with 1 can each.
There are a LOT of fuel system cleaners.....but the Berryman's is one of the less expensive ones.....and it DOES work.
My mechanic is the one who directed me to this product......after I had tried a number of other products.
The windstar fuel injectors are VERY reliable....but they tend to build up some deposits over the spray end.....not up inside the injector.....over time.
The Berryman's will clean that deposit off without having to resort to more expensive methods.

[defiant79]

Originally Posted by 96wWindstar180K

defiant79
Need more information. Engine size miles. Lots of things to check, fuel filter vacume line cracked or falling off. Spark plugs, wires, pcv, coil. You need to eliminate some things first and give more info.

Sorry, I guess I just blanked on that one. Its the 3.8L engine, with 147,500 miles on it.

I completed the valve cover replacement (and all seals and hoses related to that) about 2 months ago. I plan on taking it and getting a tuneup done in a couple of months, but I just started a new job and have to get caught up on other things first.

Fuel filter shouldn't be much, where exactly on the 1999 windstar is this located?

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by defiant79

Sorry, I guess I just blanked on that one. Its the 3.8L engine, with 147,500 miles on it.

I completed the valve cover replacement (and all seals and hoses related to that) about 2 months ago. I plan on taking it and getting a tuneup done in a couple of months, but I just started a new job and have to get caught up on other things first.

Fuel filter shouldn't be much, where exactly on the 1999 windstar is this located?

I don't know about the 99, but on my 95 its directly under the body about mid way on the left close to the left wall. It is in-line. Very easy to get to once you are underneath the van. You'll of course have to release the fuel pressure first and prepare for a gas mess ahead of time.

[defiant79]

Ok, I replaced the spark plugs, plug wires, and the fuel filter last sunday. Van seem to be running fine (still had a low idle, but has not died on me). Today I drove it to work, no problems, after work I come out and start the van and it had a knocking sound. I've never experienced an engine knock before (so bare with me). I had to drive the van home, and it seem to do just fine on the highway. Once I got home, we took it down the road to autozone (picking up some Berrymans B12) and the check engine light came on, had autozone check it and its reporting a misfire on Cylinder 6 again.

I guess my next option is to try replacing the coil pack. Any suggestions before I go with this? or am I missing something still. I've also noticed that van seems to have a small oil leak, two different spots at work have had oil sitting under the drivers side of the engine. Oil was only maybe a half a quart low so its not bad. Not sure if that means anything, just wanted to mention it.

Thanks again!

[searcherrr]

Whatever happened with this?

[defiant79]

Well, I did change the coil pack, but that had no effect really. I finally broke down and took it to the dealer to have it looked at. All they did was a compression test on Cylinder #6 and said it had a 50% loss of compression and that it would be cheaper to replace the motor at this point than to have them try to find whats wrong. He then quoted me $3200 for a new motor.

I took the van home, and its been sitting pretty much since. When I have time, I will start messing with it again (or sell it). I really like the van, just sucks that this happened with it.

[northern piper]

ouch! If the motor does need to be replaced that's rough! I'd be taking it to someplace that you know will put the proper amount of time in to determine why 6 has poor compression. It's pretty lame in this day and age when a dealer says "oh just replace the motor" rather than get to why the problem exists. You could have a sticky valve that's letting the pressure run off, the piston could be slightly off TDC, lots of stuff. They might as well have told you to "just buy a new van" for the help they gave you.

Find a place that is reputable and have them take a look. It may cost ~$150 but at least you'll be able to make an informed decision.

FWIW, my

Piper

[defiant79]

Originally Posted by northern piper

ouch! If the motor does need to be replaced that's rough! I'd be taking it to someplace that you know will put the proper amount of time in to determine why 6 has poor compression. It's pretty lame in this day and age when a dealer says "oh just replace the motor" rather than get to why the problem exists. You could have a sticky valve that's letting the pressure run off, the piston could be slightly off TDC, lots of stuff. They might as well have told you to "just buy a new van" for the help they gave you.

Find a place that is reputable and have them take a look. It may cost ~$150 but at least you'll be able to make an informed decision.

FWIW, my

Piper

Oh I wasn't happy with the dealer on this one. I plan on taking into another shop here in town in a few weeks (got some time off from work coming up, so I plan to use it). I even called the dealer and asked them (they didn't know it was me) if I was getting a loss of compression on one cylinder does it mean I should just replace the motor, and they told me no! I don't understand how some of these places get away with what they do....

I drove the van to work today just to see, and its drives great. You wouldn't know anything is wrong with it. The smoke even went away after I started driving on the highway (its been driven around town only for a month or two so maybe all that stop and go wasn't good on it). It still has the knock though but it doesn't hesitate on the highway and it runs perfectly smooth. For something that needs a new engine, I'd expect it to run worse than this.

[tomj76]

I'm not sure what type of sound you mean when you say it's knocking, but it's very common to find high mileage engines with lifters that tap, especially at idle. Is the knocking sound only noticable at low RPMs, or does it get louder whit higher RPMs?

I had an engine fail on another car due to sludging of the oil that prevented oil flow to one of the camshaft lobes. It often occurs that valves will stick due to the buildup of varnish on the valve stems. There are oil additives that can break this down and clean up the stems. I used one of those exlicers on the engine that failed (after the symptoms, prior to the overhaul). I'm not sure I could tell you that it cleaned anything up, so I don't know if they really work. However, I found that SeaFoam was able to remove varnish from the parts of the enigne when I cleaned them for re-assembly. However, Purple Power did an even better job on the parts.

I once changed the pushrods on my Windstar because the original ones were significantly worn (> 0.1")

[defiant79]

Originally Posted by tomj76

I'm not sure what type of sound you mean when you say it's knocking, but it's very common to find high mileage engines with lifters that tap, especially at idle. Is the knocking sound only noticable at low RPMs, or does it get louder whit higher RPMs?

I had an engine fail on another car due to sludging of the oil that prevented oil flow to one of the camshaft lobes. It often occurs that valves will stick due to the buildup of varnish on the valve stems. There are oil additives that can break this down and clean up the stems. I used one of those exlicers on the engine that failed (after the symptoms, prior to the overhaul). I'm not sure I could tell you that it cleaned anything up, so I don't know if they really work. However, I found that SeaFoam was able to remove varnish from the parts of the enigne when I cleaned them for re-assembly. However, Purple Power did an even better job on the parts.

I once changed the pushrods on my Windstar because the original ones were significantly worn (> 0.1")

It sounds like a rocker tapping the valve cover in all honesty. At idle its barely audible, its only around 1200-1800 RPM where you can here it the greatest. It gets a bit louder when the engine is under load (like getting onto the highway and and stuff).

I've ran a can of seafoam through it already, but it doesn't seem to have done much. I pulled the valve cover and checked everything the best I could without removing the head, and nothing appears to be any different from each cylinder (I didn't take apart the rockers and check for wear as I didn't have a torque wrench to put everything back together). It was suggested by a friend that it could be a push rod, I just haven't had the time to look into how much of a job it would be to change it out.

[defiant79]

Originally Posted by northern piper

Find a place that is reputable and have them take a look. It may cost ~$150 but at least you'll be able to make an informed decision.

Thats why I had originally taken it to the dealer, figured who would know more about it than a Ford Dealer. All I got was a $65 compression test on Cylinder 6 (I even told them it was 6 with the problem, they didn't check the others, lol)

[tomj76]

If you can explain the 50% loss of compression on cyl 6, then you might be able to know what needs to be done.

You've got to determine if the low compression is due to which of the following:
Leakage:
1) At the piston rings (scored cylinder walls or bad rings)
2) At the valves (bad valve seats or stuck open)
3) At head gasket
4) Due to a cracked head

Or low inflow of air/fuel gas
1) Due to stuck closed
2) Due to poor valve lift
3) Due to some cloggin of the intake path

The first step to make the diagnosis is to repeat the compression test. First test the compression 'dry', then test it 'wet'. If there is a difference in the two readings, it indicates the amount of gas leaking past the rings. The peak pressure should be >150 psig in both cases. If it's low on the dry test alone, then the problem is most likely the rings, but if it's low in both tests, then it's likely to be a problem in the head/valve area.

Look at the spark plugs. If the plugs are fouled with an oil coating, then oil is probably getting in the cylinder, either by getting past the rings or by leaking down the valve stems.

Running the engine with a vacuum gauge can be very helpful in diagnosising a valve problem. It's fairly complicated, and I don't remember enough about the various symptoms, but a good vacuum gauge and a the accompanying booklet will tell you a lot. I recently used to this method to find a valve problem on another engine.

If you believe it is a low intake flow due to a valve problem, you can check the valve lift by removing the valve covers and using a dial indicator to measure the amount each valve moves (particularly the intake valves). If the intake lifter fails or the intake camshaft lobe wears out, then the valve won't open fully and the compression will read low.

A lean condition means that too much air or too little fuel is entering the system. This condition is reported when the O2 sensor reads too much O2 in the exhaust. (Incidently O2 sensors actually read the absence of O2. A rich mixture burns up all the O2 in the exhaust for a 'high' reading and a lean mixture leaves too much behind for a 'low' reading.) Low compression on a cylinder is tell tail that it is not likely to be electrical in nature (i.e. coil pack).

If you follow the evidence, you should be able to find the root cause of the problem to make an informed decision as to whether repair is a worthwhile investment.

[12Ounce]

I wouldn't truss the "info" you now have. You can buy a pretty good compression tester for about $35 or less. Pretty easy to use ... and know for sure what condition you have.