Electric cars to be phased out..

[boingo82]

When I was at Comdex, I sat in a few prototype electric cars by www.feelgoodcars.com . They each weighed in the range of 1000-1500 lbs, and because of their weight, are classified as motorcycles. This means that you must, legally, wear a helmet to be in one, because they offer next to nothing in the way of occupant protection. Now, a few facts about FeelGoodCars' only available model:


Price: $11,000-13,000 US
Curb weight: 1,124 lb
Wheel base: 67.7 in (5' 7.7", shorter th
an Tangie and ALMOST as short as Mopps)
Length: 101.6 in, (8' 5.6", just a little longer than Taranaki)
Maximum speed :25 mph (40 km/h), limited according to FMVSS 500/CMVSS 500 (United-States/Canada).
Range :30 - 34 miles (50 - 55 km)
Charging :6 hours (120 VAC), 80% rechargeable in 3 hours (at $.70/kWh, costs about $.57 per charge)
Seating: 2 (+ 2 optional with rear bench 60/40 split) (**NOTE - 2 people was VERY cramped)
Emissions: 0

Now, for comparison's sake, here's the same info on my car:
Price (as new): $19,000-21,600 US
Curb weight: 2,867 lb
Wheel base: 100.4 in (8' 4.4")
Length: 175.0 in (14' 7")
Maximum speed: Not sure, but faster than any speed limit, so who cares. Probably about 120mph.
Range: 340 - 430 miles, depending on conditions.
Charging: about 10 minutes, up to 14.8 gallons of 87 octane for a total of about $25 at current gas prices.
Seating: 4 comfortably, 5 squished-ly.
Emissions: according to www.fueleconomy.gov, 7.7 tons/year assuming 15000 annual miles at 45% hwy, 55% city. (On a scale from 20.4 [Enzo Ferrari] to 3.1 [Honda Insight], the G20 scored in the top third of all "family sedans" for the year 1994.)

A few weeks ago, I was feeling exceptionally peeved about the "Feel Good Cars" thing (feeling good is usually the opposite of DOING good) and set out to prove something. I wanted to figure out EXACTLY how much my car polluted vs. the "Feel Good" variety, assuming the same miles driven at the same speed. Unfortunately this proved to be impossible, given that I couldn't find accurate pollution tables for power plants, and that USA power comes from a vast variety of sources. (Also I screwed up my calculations somewhere in the middle and gave up.)

Before I gave up , however, I did learn quite a bit. I'll share that info with you now:
I decided to use the range of the ZENN, (30-34 miles) as my base, and averaged that to be 32 miles. Then I calculated that in my G, assuming my average real-world economy of about 27mpg, I use 1.33 gallons to go 32 miles. Now, I learned from some website that 1 gallon of gas = 1.3x10^8 joules. So following that, I used about 156,296,000 joules to go 32 miles.

I didn't have any idea how much energy is used from the ZENN's batteries, or how to calculate that, so I asked my dad. Here's a quote from him:

Let's just drain their batteries for the trip.
72 Volts x 90 Ah = 6480 Wh
6480 Wh x 3600 = 23,328,000 Ws or Joules to go their 30-34 miles
Your car used 156,296,000 Joules per your calculations.
So they start with a factor of 6.7 times as efficient.
In reality, you cannot allow their batteries drain to below about 20% or
they cannot recharge.
This efficiency in using electric motors to get power to the wheels is why
diesel locomotives on trains use diesel generators running electric motors
to move their millions of tons of train and cargo.

Hope this helps.

Steve

So in essence, the G used 6.7 times as much energy to go the same distance. Sounds bad, until you factor in the weight. Since the G weighs 2.55 times as much, we have to factor that in. The ZENN used 23,328,000 joules to move its 1124lbs, at 20,754.4 joules/lb. The G used 156,296,000 joules to move its 2867 lbs (though I should throw in a few hundred more for me and all the crap I keep in the trunk) netting 54515.5 joules/lb. That leaves us with the ZENN being 2.62 times as efficient.

Then I tried to calculate how much my car actually polluted per mile, vs. how much the ZENN did, and that's where I got screwed up. If you want to try and figure it out, go for it.

Oh, I asked my dad about the charger's effiency and the loss of power over long distance lines, and here's what I got:

Well, it's getting rather complicated now. Good chargers nowadays are
probably about 80 per cent efficient. As far as loss when you transport the
electricity over distances, gasoline itself has costs associated with
transmission. If you belive that the free market economy brings us to some
parity at the point of delivery, electricity is about 7 cents per KWh or a
cost of about 57 cents per charge assuming 80 percent charging efficiency.
Your car would use 1.33 gallons of gas at $1.50 per gallon is $2.00 for the
same trip. But can you really measure the loss of productivity, time, lives
associated with driving vehicles that require as much down-time and
complicated infrastructure to use? The fact that internal combustion
engines can carry their weight and transport their fuel and driver and still
have power available to transport cargo means that until we run out of ways
to fuel them (not very likely) they will continue to provide us with the
incredible diversity of applications that they do.

I think I've concluded that the ultimate "Feel-and-actually-DO-good" car right now, with current technology, would be a Toyota or Honda hybrid engine mated to the Sentra CA's zero-evaporative-emissions fuel and exhaust system. The hybrid engine seems to be the best for gas mileage and energy-efficiency, as instead of using an alternative energy source, it makes better use of the same old one. The Sentra CA is currently the lowest-emissions gasoline powered vehicle in production, producing zero evaporative emissions whatsoever. The best thing about this is that the Civic hybrid looks and acts almost exactly like a regular Civc, only it shuts off at stoplights, has a different gauge cluster, and nets nearly twice the mpg. The Sentra CA looks and acts like a regular Sentra, except it has 4 fewer horsies, and is probably WAY more difficult to service. I'm not one to get all tree-huggy, but if a person can have environmental friendliness with no (or very few) compromises, why not? Right now, the ZENN, fairly efficient though it may be, is not a practical alternative to a conventional (sensible) car.

[Murco]

:huh:
I'll have to read that again when I have a few hours, but I like what you are getting at!!

[boingo82]

To make things interesting, here are some more examples:

2003 Honda Insight:
1964 lbs, avg 60mpg, 67 hp
35302 joules/lb to go 32 miles
69,333,333 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0341

2003 Cadillac Escalade:
5641 lbs, avg 15 mpg, avg 310 hp
49163 joules/lb to go 32 miles
277,333,333 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0549

2003 Nissan Sentra:
2650 lbs, avg 32 mpg, 126 hp
49056 joules/lb to go 32 miles
130,000,000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0475

2003 Hummer H1:
7000 lbs, avg 10.7 mpg, 195 hp
55540 joules/lb to go 32 miles
388,785,046 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0278

1994 Infiniti G20:
2867 lbs, avg 27 mpg, 140 hp
54515 joules/lb to go 32 miles
156,296,000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0488

2003 Toyota Camry 2.4L:
3200 lbs, avg 28 mpg, 157 hp
46434 joules/lb to go 32 miles
148,590,000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0490

2003 Toyota Camry 3.0L:
3300 lbs, avg 25 mpg, 210 hp
54424 joules/lb to go 32 miles
166400000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0636

edit: I just realized that my G looks like an inefficient piece of crap next to that Camry, which moves more weight with more power for less total energy. So, to make things fair, here's the 1994 Camry:

1994 Toyota Camry 2.2L:
3000 lbs, avg 25 mpg, 125 hp
55,466 joules/lb to go 32 miles
166400000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0417

1994 Toyota Camry 3.0L:
3200 lbs, avg 21.5 mpg, 188 hp
60450 joules/lb to go 32 miles
193440000 joules total to go 32 miles
hp/lb ratio: .0588

So, that just shows you how far engine technology has come in the last 9 years. They are now netting more power, more reliability, more displacement, better fuel economy, and less pollution.

[NSX-R-SSJ20K]

Steven Hawkin said that Electric engines will never be fully recognized and that we will continue to use the internal combustion engine and it will get more and more efficient.

Altho when the oil runs out ........:o

[bowtiebandit]

Digging this up again because I thought this was pretty interesting, we discussed this it at the GM training center last week. You will have to know that there is no more serp belt on the engine. The whole bell housing is the starter/generator which is liquid cooled. It comes with 110 volt outlets and I heard could come with 3 phase outlets too! The engine is an 5.3L

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/...ks_052201.html

[integra818]

Hav'nt read the thred but I'll post my opinion on elctric cars...

Electric cars were invented back in the early 1900s, but for some odd reason, they found gasoline enignes to be better, I don't know the story...

I'd NEVER buy an electric car, I'll always use gasolin, if the price of gas goesup to $10 per gallon, I'll ride a bycicle (speeling?) I'm serious, I'll die before I use an electric car instead of a gasoline-powered car.

The electric car might not even sell very well in other countries besides America. I know people in Europe areas LOVE thier cars, but some people in America are lazy and like simple things so they's buy an electric car just because it'll cost less to maintain it

[BigJustinZ28]

maybe they are all going in the wrong direction. Why new types of cars and motors. What if they could develope a clean fuel that could work in existing internal combustion engines ??? It might sound dumb to some people but we all already have the cars !!! All you need is something synthetic maybe that burns much cleaner than gasoline and diesel and is cheap. I think that would be what theyed have to do to get EVERYONE into the clean market. I hope someone somewhere is working on that angle cuz i am not ever trading my camaro for a prius or ev1 !!! I dont think it is beyond our technology , someone just needs to get lucky and discover it !!!

[mothergoose987]

I can clip a baseball card to your rims if you want the noise
Read about the TESLA it doesnt have a high top speed but 0-60 in less than 4 seconds

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by mothergoose987

I can clip a baseball card to your rims if you want the noise
Read about the TESLA it doesnt have a high top speed but 0-60 in less than 4 seconds

Welcome to AF.

Sorry but please check the date and do not resurrect old threads. Thread closed.


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[fredjacksonsan]

Holy crap. 5 years! That's a record.