McLaren gets the shaft

[freakray]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Fixed.

Anyway, Ron Dennis has said that nothing in their design comes from the Ferrari data. Apart from the obvious copying of device designs, how else can this sort of data be used?

According to the transcripts of the e-mails from Coughlan to the drivers, they primarily used the data in understanding how Ferrari set up their car to work well with the Bridgestone tires.

Essentially, they seemed to have used the testing data contained in the package Stepney sent them.

[drunken monkey]

Oh right.
So it's about the tyre testing data.
Which reminds me, what did happen with that thing with Firestone tyres running on Indianapolis in a non-F1 race that essentially gave the Bridgestone teams tyre/track data when they weren't supposed to?

Wasn't the whole thing about switching to one tyre manufacturer to level out the playing field? How is it levelling out the playing field when some teams have previous experience with the tyre manufacturer?

[freakray]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Oh right.
So it's about the tyre testing data.
Which reminds me, what did happen with that thing with Firestone tyres running on Indianapolis in a non-F1 race that essentially gave the Bridgestone teams tyre/track data when they weren't supposed to?

Wasn't the whole thing about switching to one tyre manufacturer to level out the playing field? How is it levelling out the playing field when some teams have previous experience with the tyre manufacturer?

Further proving the fact that what's fair for one team isn't fair for another.

And which team is bleating the loudest about the introduction of the control ECU for next season?

[DinanM3_S2]

As I understand it Stepney giving McLaren Ferrari's data had little to do with a sense of motorsport fairness and more to do with a misguided attempt to gain favor with another team. Ferrari's questionable aero-device (moving floors I believe they were called) took advantage of a gap in the rules. It passed every test created by the FIA to declare a 2007 car legal. It did however violate the spirit of the "no moving aerodynamics" rule. McLaren asked the FIA to clarify their rules and review their testing of cars in light of the new Ferrari development. The FIA ruled it illegal and Ferrari did away with it.

The way I see it Ferrari did what they thought was coming as close to breaking the rules as possible without actually breaking them. In order to be a highly competitive team you must do this. Ferrari never hid their aerodynamic device, the FIA deemed it fair until Ron Dennis argued against it.

I also understand that Alonso basically told Dennis that unless Dennis told the FIA, Alonso would himself. Alonso basically gave Dennis an opportunity for damage control. Alonso wasn't about to risk himself to save the team and Dennis didn't tell the FIA until Alonso forced him into it. I personally see Alonso as the good guy in the McLaren team for providing the FIA with the emails and giving Dennis a chance to tell the FIA himself, although some people think Alonso was "blackmailing" Dennis into giving him preferential treatment (which I don't think he needed as he proved at Spa and Italy).

Regarding how exactly McLaren used the Ferrari data, it is my understanding that they tested Ferrari elements to see if they would benefit them. The two cars were vastly different before McLaren recieved the Ferrari information so it didn't help too much in that respect. Stepney also provided some information on Ferrari's race strategies for the earlier races, for example, which lap Kimi would pit in Bahrain. Just because Ferrari technology isn't in McLaren's car doesn't mean that McLaren didn't attempt to use it, as is shown in the FIA document.

Regarding the single tire manufacturer, supposedly the new Bridgestone tires are significantly different from the 2006 and earlier models. We can see evidence of a difference in the slower times compared to last year. That given, Ferrari does have a history with Bridgestone, but you can hardly blame Ferrari for there being a single manufacturer. Blame lies with Michelin and their failure to produce an acceptable tire at the 2005 USGP.

Edit: just saw this and thought it was cool- Kimi entering the pits at Spa

[freakray]

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

Blame lies with Michelin and their failure to produce an acceptable tire at the 2005 USGP.

I think in this instance, you're losing site of the fact that 2005 was the single tire for a race weekend season. Besides that you have to then go back to the point that Bridgestone/Firestone had track data which Michelin didn't from the earlier IRL races in the season.

[ales]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Oh right.
So it's about the tyre testing data.
Which reminds me, what did happen with that thing with Firestone tyres running on Indianapolis in a non-F1 race that essentially gave the Bridgestone teams tyre/track data when they weren't supposed to?

Wasn't the whole thing about switching to one tyre manufacturer to level out the playing field? How is it levelling out the playing field when some teams have previous experience with the tyre manufacturer?

Whatever happened in 2005 it was not illegal. What the cheats and hypocrites at Mclaren did was. And they even sort of got punished for it, even though I believe I've made my feelings about that "punishment" clear.

As for single tyre manufacturer, well, why do you think Williams and Toyota switched to Bridgestone in 06? Because they wanted more experience with the tyres before everyone moved to them (and their comparative performance this year shows how much help that was - seems to be none considering just how different the tyres are). Heck, in that case you can cite previous experience with Bridgestone of every other team in the championship - before Michelin came about. And having experience with the tyre manufacturer, yet again, is not legal, while Mclaren's conduct with the illegally obtained information was illegal and cheating. Try to live with it.

[ales]

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

McLaren asked the FIA to clarify their rules and review their testing of cars in light of the new Ferrari development. The FIA ruled it illegal and Ferrari did away with it.

The way I see it Ferrari did what they thought was coming as close to breaking the rules as possible without actually breaking them. In order to be a highly competitive team you must do this. Ferrari never hid their aerodynamic device, the FIA deemed it fair until Ron Dennis argued against it.

That's partly true. Dennis did not ask for clarification of the device on the Ferrari car (of which he wasn't supposed to be aware of) but pretended to be thinking of having one installed on the Mclaren car. If that isn't an example of the hypocrisy of the majority of the top personnel at Mclaren I don't know what is.

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

I also understand that Alonso basically told Dennis that unless Dennis told the FIA, Alonso would himself. Alonso basically gave Dennis an opportunity for damage control. Alonso wasn't about to risk himself to save the team and Dennis didn't tell the FIA until Alonso forced him into it. I personally see Alonso as the good guy in the McLaren team for providing the FIA with the emails and giving Dennis a chance to tell the FIA himself, although some people think Alonso was "blackmailing" Dennis into giving him preferential treatment (which I don't think he needed as he proved at Spa and Italy).

That is something we just do not have enough information on I feel, but I'm very reluctant to see Alonso as a good guy. He had no problem using information that he knew was obtained illegally and even asking Coughlan through De La Rosa for more. After his high horse holier than though moments last season he comes off as one of the biggest hypocrites in the story. The biggest is still probably De La Rosa as he was arguably the most vocal at Monaco last year and yet was first to knowingly use illegally obtained information. I could barely believe my eyes when I first saw those emails, it's just mind boggling.

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

Blame lies with Michelin and their failure to produce an acceptable tire at the 2005 USGP.

It's funny how there is no problem with Bridgestone bringing (relatively) largely uncompetitive tyres for all the races but one, but once Michelin does that and Bridgestone actually deliver then it's unfair.

[Dyno247365]

I just knew I would have to deal with this bull all season, and that's no fair to me, this was my very first F1 season to watch. There was so much corruptness in this season and it was mostly Mclaren, especially hamilton being lifted back onto the track during the rainstorm, the only one to get that treatment.

The worst thing I've seen the Ferrari drivers do this year was fight with eachother for position, and the Ferrari Team let them fight. Compared to Mclaren, where they were making team orders not to pass eachother, even if one is faster. Ferrari was more likeable this season...that is, before the whole scandal, now they're crybabies. I never was for that 'secret setup' crowd, I like to share, makes it more of a driver's race.

Honestly, I want to see BMW win now, I'm tired of the red and the...silver and red, I wanna see some white and blue. Red's still my favorite color though.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by Dyno247365

....Mclaren, where they were making team orders not to pass eachother, even if one is faster.

You say you've never followed F1 before so you can be forgiven this but you really should read some of the history of the races...

[freakray]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

You say you've never followed F1 before so you can be forgiven this but you really should read some of the history of the races...

Exactly, Schumacher wouldn't have anywhere near his tally of wins were it not for Ferrari constantly making his teammates pull over for him.

[DinanM3_S2]

Originally Posted by freakray

Exactly, Schumacher wouldn't have anywhere near his tally of wins were it not for Ferrari constantly making his teammates pull over for him.

Schumacher's teammates hardly "constantly" pulled over for him. How many instances can you really mention where Schumacher was really handed the win by a teammate pulling over for him?

[freakray]

2002 Austrian GP is one of the best examples, but you're right, they usually held them in the pits longer than required to give Schumacher time to get by.

[crayzayjay]

hahaha... some things never change