Need advice fast!

[bigbadbob]

My new 2005 Toyota Sienna, 1900 miles, is sitting in the Toyota dealer's shop right now with a bad alternator and discharged battery. This is a van that has had handicap conversion by IMS Braun in New Mexico, the only conversion endorsed by Toyota. Through their partnership, Braun buys specially modified Siennas directly from the plant with an "AX package" and converts them, then sells them through "access van" dealers around the country. The floor is lowered 10", it has an infloor ramp that rolls out when the passenger side power sliding door is opened, and the van then "kneels" to the ground by compressing the shocks. So it has had major modification, including the electrical system.

(It should be noted here that Toyota put only a 582 amp battery in this vehicle, which seems to me woefully inadequate for all the power equipment on it. And I should note that most, or at least 50%, of the time that I deploy the power door/ramp/kneeling I have the engine running. In fact, the access van seller tells me I shouldn't have to have the engine running at all before deploying the system.)

I took delivery of the van Oct. 27 and had no problems until the past 3 weeks since when the battery has gone dead twice. After the second AAA jump start I purchased a battery charger which includes a diagnostic mode which indicated the alternator is "bad." (It doesn't tell me how many volts it's producing.) The van seller tells me this is a Toyota problem, and the Toyota shop tells me I am responsible, since the van has been modified, and "these altinators almost never go bad." Of course, it may be that the failure is due to something the conversion company did, but I imagine it is also possible that a new altinator could be defective and should be replaced under warranty. But I have no way of knowing which is true, and neither party wants to take responsibility.

My options are to get stuck with the repair bill or try to arm myself with enough knowledge to argue the case one way or the other. It would seem to me that if Toyota can say positively that the altinator failure is due to something the conversion company did, they should be able to point to what it was, so that the conversion company could be convinced that they are responsible for the repair.

So, what are the possibilities? What specifically might the conversion company have done when installing the electrical components that could cause the altinator to fail after a couple of months of use? Or is it more likely that this was a defective altinator? I will be going to the shop to discuss this with the service manager/mechanic and would like to know if what they are telling me makes sense. If they can convince me that it was due to the modifications, then I can argue the case with the conversion company.

Can anyone help me out here?

Thanks.

[AlmostStock]

Since you had no problems for two whole months after delivery I don't see how the modifications could be the cause of your problem. If I understand you correctly these modifications are only used for loading/unloading. That shouldn't stress the charging system very much in my opinion. Toyota should be responsible for this. Remind them that you bought "the only conversion endorsed by Toyota", therefore it should be covered. You didn't cobble this stuff together yourself, you bought what they recommended! Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

Toyota should be responsible for this. Remind them that you bought "the only conversion endorsed by Toyota", therefore it should be covered. You didn't cobble this stuff together yourself, you bought what they recommended! Good luck and let us know how it goes.

I agree. Toyota is responsible.
They are selling a chassis to a known coachbuilder who must have made the truck's electrical needs known to Toyota before vans were shipped to them.

If they can prove the coach builder's wiring is defective, for example, an electrical short placed a severe drain on the charging system only when the ignition is on, then perhaps the coach builder is responsible. But IMO it's Toyota's obligation to prove such a deficiency.

As an aside, alternators are not designed for repeated chargings of a severely depleated battery.
It is possible if the battery is repeatedly heavily discharged through loading/unloading without the engine running, the alternator will become overheated and internally damaged when you start the vehicle up and recharge the battery.

But IMO Toyota is still responsible.

Why do they recommend loading/unloading with the engine off? Safety reasons, ie no accidentally knocking the vehicle into gear before the ramp and passengers are clear?

Also the battery's amp rating is less inmportant than it's ability to produce a certain amp rating over a period of time. I mught suggest, eventually to replace the battery with a deep cycle battery (they can cope with discharges better) that is suitable for starting an engine. An RV dealership or parts/repair place could provide one.

[TheSilentChamber]

If it is a Toyota endorsed conversion, any failure of engine parts should be covered by by the factory warranty. If it has a toyota endorsement, it does not void the warranty. I would contact IMS and have them send you something to varify that their vehicals carry the full warranty offered by Toyota- if they are endorsed they will have something along these lines. Take that into the dealership that denied you and go directly to the manager.

[LeSabre97mint]

Originally Posted by bigbadbob

My new 2005 Toyota Sienna, 1900 miles, is sitting in the Toyota dealer's shop right now with a bad alternator and discharged battery. This is a van that has had handicap conversion by IMS Braun in New Mexico, the only conversion endorsed by Toyota. Through their partnership, Braun buys specially modified Siennas directly from the plant with an "AX package" and converts them, then sells them through "access van" dealers around the country. The floor is lowered 10", it has an infloor ramp that rolls out when the passenger side power sliding door is opened, and the van then "kneels" to the ground by compressing the shocks. So it has had major modification, including the electrical system.

(It should be noted here that Toyota put only a 582 amp battery in this vehicle, which seems to me woefully inadequate for all the power equipment on it. And I should note that most, or at least 50%, of the time that I deploy the power door/ramp/kneeling I have the engine running. In fact, the access van seller tells me I shouldn't have to have the engine running at all before deploying the system.)

I took delivery of the van Oct. 27 and had no problems until the past 3 weeks since when the battery has gone dead twice. After the second AAA jump start I purchased a battery charger which includes a diagnostic mode which indicated the alternator is "bad." (It doesn't tell me how many volts it's producing.) The van seller tells me this is a Toyota problem, and the Toyota shop tells me I am responsible, since the van has been modified, and "these altinators almost never go bad." Of course, it may be that the failure is due to something the conversion company did, but I imagine it is also possible that a new altinator could be defective and should be replaced under warranty. But I have no way of knowing which is true, and neither party wants to take responsibility.

My options are to get stuck with the repair bill or try to arm myself with enough knowledge to argue the case one way or the other. It would seem to me that if Toyota can say positively that the altinator failure is due to something the conversion company did, they should be able to point to what it was, so that the conversion company could be convinced that they are responsible for the repair.

So, what are the possibilities? What specifically might the conversion company have done when installing the electrical components that could cause the altinator to fail after a couple of months of use? Or is it more likely that this was a defective altinator? I will be going to the shop to discuss this with the service manager/mechanic and would like to know if what they are telling me makes sense. If they can convince me that it was due to the modifications, then I can argue the case with the conversion company.

Can anyone help me out here?

Thanks.

I emailed the IMS Braun and got this reply:


above is a Toyota motor company warranty problem..........===ask for service manager== if he tells you same thing ask him to call Toyota motor company............if that falls ask your mobility dealer to give you phone # to Toyota as provided in each modified van........regards,and all the best...............Pete


I hope this helps

Regards

Dan

[LeSabre97mint]

Originally Posted by bigbadbob

My new 2005 Toyota Sienna, 1900 miles, is sitting in the Toyota dealer's shop right now with a bad alternator and discharged battery. This is a van that has had handicap conversion by IMS Braun in New Mexico, the only conversion endorsed by Toyota. Through their partnership, Braun buys specially modified Siennas directly from the plant with an "AX package" and converts them, then sells them through "access van" dealers around the country. The floor is lowered 10", it has an infloor ramp that rolls out when the passenger side power sliding door is opened, and the van then "kneels" to the ground by compressing the shocks. So it has had major modification, including the electrical system.

(It should be noted here that Toyota put only a 582 amp battery in this vehicle, which seems to me woefully inadequate for all the power equipment on it. And I should note that most, or at least 50%, of the time that I deploy the power door/ramp/kneeling I have the engine running. In fact, the access van seller tells me I shouldn't have to have the engine running at all before deploying the system.)

I took delivery of the van Oct. 27 and had no problems until the past 3 weeks since when the battery has gone dead twice. After the second AAA jump start I purchased a battery charger which includes a diagnostic mode which indicated the alternator is "bad." (It doesn't tell me how many volts it's producing.) The van seller tells me this is a Toyota problem, and the Toyota shop tells me I am responsible, since the van has been modified, and "these altinators almost never go bad." Of course, it may be that the failure is due to something the conversion company did, but I imagine it is also possible that a new altinator could be defective and should be replaced under warranty. But I have no way of knowing which is true, and neither party wants to take responsibility.

My options are to get stuck with the repair bill or try to arm myself with enough knowledge to argue the case one way or the other. It would seem to me that if Toyota can say positively that the altinator failure is due to something the conversion company did, they should be able to point to what it was, so that the conversion company could be convinced that they are responsible for the repair.

So, what are the possibilities? What specifically might the conversion company have done when installing the electrical components that could cause the altinator to fail after a couple of months of use? Or is it more likely that this was a defective altinator? I will be going to the shop to discuss this with the service manager/mechanic and would like to know if what they are telling me makes sense. If they can convince me that it was due to the modifications, then I can argue the case with the conversion company.

Can anyone help me out here?

Thanks.

I emailed the IMS Braun and got this reply:


above is a Toyota motor company warranty problem..........===ask for service manager== if he tells you same thing ask him to call Toyota motor company............if that falls ask your mobility dealer to give you phone # to Toyota as provided in each modified van........regards,and all the best...............Pete


I hope this helps

Regards

Dan

[bigbadbob]

Originally Posted by LeSabre97mint

I emailed the IMS Braun and got this reply:


above is a Toyota motor company warranty problem..........===ask for service manager== if he tells you same thing ask him to call Toyota motor company............if that falls ask your mobility dealer to give you phone # to Toyota as provided in each modified van........regards,and all the best...............Pete


I hope this helps

Regards

Dan

Dan, thanks for taking the time and initiative to intercede on my behalf. I had written to Braun also, day before yesterday and have yet to get a reply.

I met yesterday with the local Toyota service mgr and strongly encouraged him to resolve this. He put another tech on it who supposedly ran a test indicating that, in fact, the altinator is "fine" and there is a "draw" in the ramp modifications and components and they cannot work on it. They made no effort to trace the fault. They supposedly went to the next level in Toyota and were told to refer me back to the company that did the conversion. Of course, that company is Braun in New Mexico.

I recontacted the local company which sold me the van (30 miles away) and they agreed to attempt to trace the draw next week and go from there. Since buying the van, I've learned from other owners that this is the unfortunate situation for many of us, that Toyota and the access van dealers try to pass the buck, and blame--unacceptable treatment of the owner who has shelled out $64,000. Hopefully the tech next week will get to the bottom of the issue and determine where the responsibility lies.

Again, thanks. Your action has opened a door, and it should be easier now to take it to the next level if the problem is not resolved next week.

[LeSabre97mint]

Originally Posted by bigbadbob

Dan, thanks for taking the time and initiative to intercede on my behalf. I had written to Braun also, day before yesterday and have yet to get a reply.

I met yesterday with the local Toyota service mgr and strongly encouraged him to resolve this. He put another tech on it who supposedly ran a test indicating that, in fact, the altinator is "fine" and there is a "draw" in the ramp modifications and components and they cannot work on it. They made no effort to trace the fault. They supposedly went to the next level in Toyota and were told to refer me back to the company that did the conversion. Of course, that company is Braun in New Mexico.

I recontacted the local company which sold me the van (30 miles away) and they agreed to attempt to trace the draw next week and go from there. Since buying the van, I've learned from other owners that this is the unfortunate situation for many of us, that Toyota and the access van dealers try to pass the buck, and blame--unacceptable treatment of the owner who has shelled out $64,000. Hopefully the tech next week will get to the bottom of the issue and determine where the responsibility lies.

Again, thanks. Your action has opened a door, and it should be easier now to take it to the next level if the problem is not resolved next week.

I try not to pass anyone by that needs help. I just emailed Braun and asked the owner to contact you. I'm sure he doesn't want his vehicals getting a bad rap over this! I'm sure he'll do some work for you.

I hope the dealer you got it from can fix it.

Regards

Dan