Definition of forced induction

[Jet-Lee]

When injecting nitrous oxide into the intake tract, are you giving the engine the choice of "ingesting" it? No? Then if the engine isn't taking it in by choice, it must be forced then, correct?

Your turn.

[astroracer]

My turn? Does this even deserve a response? I guess I can give one just for the hell of it...
Let me understand what you are saying... You say that, because the engine has no choice but to ingest the nitrous, that it is being "forced" to, correct? So this is the definition of "Forced Induction"?
Any act upon which you "force" an engine to ingest Nitrous Oxide.
Lets think about this...
What about the air and gasoline you are "forcing" the engine to ingest? Every time you step on the throttle you are FORCING gas and air down it's throat... Does it have a choice? No! Is this "Forced Induction" also? According to your theory, yes, it is. So EVERY normally aspirated engine in the world is a forced induction engine.
But wait...
What if the engine had a choice? Maybe we should inject urine into the motor along with the nitrous so it could choose what it wanted. Then the motor would not be forced to ingest the nitrous. It could choose between the two and ingest whichever one it likes best. This could be defined as "Freedom Of Choice Induction". I like it!...
Although, as I write this, I have realized the motor already has a choice! It can decide for itself what it wants to ingest between the air, fuel and/or nitrous. It has a choice, sir. This is NOT forced induction. It is "Freedom Of Choice Induction".
I really hope you weren't serious about this...

[Jet-Lee]

Alrighty smart guy. Where does the pressure from a Turbo/Super Charger have the option of going? Where does the N2O have the option of going?

T/S charger CANNOT aid the engine when it is not running. If you spin, by hand or other means, your turbo or super a little, then start the engine, what happens? Same ole start. If you spray some nitrous into the intake then start it, what happens? quite a livelier start wouldn't you say?

I'd say N2O is more forced on the engine than t/c and s/c. You don't decide when to boost, but you decide when to spray.

EDIT: Going on your logic of EVERY-vehicle-being-forced-induction-because-it-doesn't-have-the-option-of-not-taking-the-fuel theory, then a supercharged or turbocharged vehicle is not forced induction because the t/c or s/c is there and a part of the engine and the engine utilizes it no matter what you do with the pedal. If you say you're FORCING more air into the engine with them, you're FORCING more fuel into the engine when you depress the gas pedal. With nitrous, YOU are physically FORCING nitrous into the intake tract for the engine to induct, because THAT is what engines do, they INDUCT whatever is in the air, they INDUCT compressed air, they INDUCT ANYTHING in the intake tract. Putting ANYTHING in the intake tract FORCES the running engine to INDUCT it. Hence, FORCED INDUCTION.

[astroracer]

Q)”Alrighty smart guy. Where does the pressure from a Turbo/Super Charger have the option of going? Where does the N2O have the option of going?”
A) An engine under boost will use all of the pressure to fill the cylinders as they open. An overboost situation, where the motor cannot use all of the pressure is controlled with a wastegate in a turbocharged application and a pop-off valve in a supercharged application.
B) Any unused Nitrous will simply vent out the carburetor into the atmosphere or be sucked into an adjacent cylinder. The reason for this is because the intake is not a tube sealed at both ends. It is always open to the atmosphere through the carb or injectors. (Does this sound familiar to anyone?)

Q) ”T/S charger CANNOT aid the engine when it is not running.”
A) Ummm… To my knowledge gasoline and air will not aid an engine when it is not running… What is your point here?

Q) “If you spin, by hand or other means, your turbo or super a little, then start the engine, what happens? Same ole start.”
A) A supercharger is parasitic; it runs off the engine. The motor HAS to be running for the blower to put out boost. You cannot physically spin the blower by hand because it is running through a belt drive hooked directly to the engines pulleys. A turbocharger runs off exhaust gasses, again, the motor HAS to be running for the turbo to build boost. Why would you want to spin them up prior to starting the engine? So you can “force” the engine to start?

Q) “If you spray some nitrous into the intake then start it, what happens? quite a livelier start wouldn't you say?”
A) Yea, I would think so. Probably create a lean misfire and blow the carb off your motor. The engine HAS to be running to use the nitrous shot correctly. Ask anyone who runs nitrous oxide why they don’t start their engine with it. I’d like to be there when you get your answer… Again, why would you want to do this and what is your point?

Q) “I'd say N2O is more forced on the engine than t/c and s/c. You don't decide when to boost, but you decide when to spray.”
A). So, a constant boost pressure of 10psi is not “forced induction” because it is always “there”… filling every cylinder on every intake stroke with 10lbs more pressure then ambient. BUT, because I can decide WHEN to hit the nitrous button that IS “forced induction” because I decided when to “force” the motor to ingest it…
OHH MYY GOD… You’ve got to be kidding, right? Is this your definition of “forced induction”? Jumping up on top of your engine and jamming crap into the carb? Do you have any clue as to what you are saying here? I have a “forced induction” engine because I can “force” it to ingest anything I want…????


EDIT: Going on your logic of EVERY-vehicle-being-forced-induction-because-it-doesn't-have-the-option-of-not-taking-the-fuel theory,
Ah, excuse me! This is YOUR logic from your previous post…
“When injecting nitrous oxide into the intake tract, are you giving the engine the choice of "ingesting" it? No? Then if the engine isn't taking it in by choice, it must be forced then, correct?”
I simply expanded on your statement and defined exactly what you were saying… Don’t twist my words around to say what you want them to say. It doesn’t work.


Q) “then a supercharged or turbocharged vehicle is not forced induction because the t/c or s/c is there and a part of the engine and the engine utilizes it no matter what you do with the pedal. If you say you're FORCING more air into the engine with them, you're FORCING more fuel into the engine when you depress the gas pedal.”
A) Not exactly. You see the pedal simply opens the carburetor to allow more air to be drawn into the engine. The “airflow” over the carburetors’ “venturi” is what actually determines how much fuel is ingested. The engine has a choice here. Do I allow more fuel to pass or do I starve myself to death. We don't “force” more fuel to flow to a correctly operating engine, the airflow through the carb decides this. But we do "force" the accelerator pedal down... Maybe you're right...

Q)”With nitrous, YOU are physically FORCING nitrous into the intake tract for the engine to induct,”
A) Not exactly… That’s what the pressure in the bottle is for. All I do is flip a switch to activate a solenoid or two. Although I do “force” the switch to move so maybe you’re right…

Q) “because THAT is what engines do, they INDUCT whatever is in the air, they INDUCT compressed air, they INDUCT ANYTHING in the intake tract. Putting ANYTHING in the intake tract FORCES the running engine to INDUCT it. Hence, FORCED INDUCTION”
How do you rationalize with an irrational concept like this. You cannot FORCE an engine to do anything… It just does it. It is not a living thing. It is inanimate. It doesn’t CARE what you put in the intake. It has no feeling, no thought.
THIS IS RIDICULOUS. What are we talking about here? A high performance engine modification or just stuffing anything you can into a motor so you can call it "forced induction"?
I can see where you are coming from with this train of thought but it just doesn’t apply to this discussion. Just because you can “force” an engine to ingest crap doesn’t mean it is “forced” into the cylinder. It would still be drawn into the engine under ambient air pressure. Boost pressure greater then ambient is required to fill a cylinder with more air then it can possibly draw in under ambient. This is how a blower or turbocharger works. You can “force” crap into an engine all day long but it will never fill a cylinder beyond it’s capacity at ambient. This is NOT “Forced Induction”. Sorry but I’m not buying it…

[Black Lotus]

[quote=astroracer “If you spin, by hand or other means, your turbo or super a little, then start the engine, what happens? Same ole start.”
[/QUOTE]
I tell you what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna rig up a lawn mower pull starter to be turbo. And when the engine is off, I'm gonna pull on the handle real hard, hop into the drivers seat, switch on, pop the throttle butterfly open, and let the pressurised air spin the engine around till it starts.
Not baaaad, huh?
Saves on the battery!
Wait...
Uhhhhhhhhh..
Oh.

[astroracer]

[quote=Black Lotus]

Originally Posted by astroracer “If you spin, by hand or other means, your turbo or super a little, then start the engine, what happens? Same ole start.”[/QUOTE

I tell you what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna rig up a lawn mower pull starter to be turbo. And when the engine is off, I'm gonna pull on the handle real hard, hop into the drivers seat, switch on, pop the throttle butterfly open, and let the pressurised air spin the engine around till it starts.
Not baaaad, huh?
Saves on the battery!
Wait...
Uhhhhhhhhh..
Oh.

Just to clarify things here... This is JET LEE's statement. Not mine. Any italized phrases in my previous post were his statements. Don't confuse the issue any further with mis-quotes.

[RatedX]

Im a new guy and came here to learn something and this is what I see.
I hope all threads aren't like this.

[Jet-Lee]

yes, they are, big ego's working against reason.

Boost pressure greater then ambient is required to fill a cylinder with more air then it can possibly draw in under ambient. This is how a blower or turbocharger works. You can “force” crap into an engine all day long but it will never fill a cylinder beyond it’s capacity at ambient. This is NOT “Forced Induction”. Sorry but I’m not buying it…

Ok, now this is what Gringo an I were talkin about. You CAN force pressurized air into the engine without a turbo or super charger. It's called harmonic tuning. It uses pressure waves that travel at the speed of sound to get a pressure pocket built up and moving toward the intake valve. You want this pocket to reach the valve about 5º-10º AFTER the valve starts to open.

Harmonic Tuning.....it forces pressurized air into the cylinders.

[beef_bourito]

i hope you know the speed of sound isn't constant, explain to me how you would tune an intake to work perfectly on different days with different temperatures, humidity factors, and pressure. also, when you inject nitrous into the intake you are ot forcing the nitrous to be injested, you are simply allowing the engine to injest it (which it will) and by doing so you are forcing more oxygen into the cylender by creating this oxygen rich environment.

[astroracer]

Originally Posted by Jet-Lee

Ok, now this is what Gringo an I were talkin about. You CAN force pressurized air into the engine without a turbo or super charger. It's called harmonic tuning. It uses pressure waves that travel at the speed of sound to get a pressure pocket built up and moving toward the intake valve. You want this pocket to reach the valve about 5º-10º AFTER the valve starts to open.

Harmonic Tuning.....it forces pressurized air into the cylinders.

Yes, I have agreed with this principal twice before... Here are my two previous posts on the matter. Read them this time...

Originally Posted by astroracer

"Without a mechanical means of maintaining a pressurized intake charge, in a sealed system of course, a N/A engine relies souly on ambient air pressure to push the intake charge into the cylinder. This charge may get an initial boost from ram tuning yes, but, that "boost" is negligible at all but a very narrow RPM band and will quickly equalize itself to ambient before the cylinder fills because there is no pressure to back it up other then ambient air pressure."

The above is from one of my previous posts. As you can see I did agree with the principles of ram tuning but, I also pointed out that the tuning is only effective for a limited RPM range(as was stated in the article...)The motor only runs "well" when it is in this band. And, like you stated, very few engines are ram tuned just for this reason. Ram tuning does provide a performance increase, I agree whole-heartedly, but it is still not "forced" induction. It is a simple manipulation of reversion waves induced during intake cycles and has no means of sustaining itself once the "pressure" is drawn off during the intake stroke of the piston. Once this high pressure "reversion wave" is drawn into the cylinder the rest of the intake charge is relying on ambient air pressure to continue filling the cylinder. This is NOT "Forced Induction".

All I am doing is repeating myself over and over and this is getting stupid and boring. It seems the definition of forced induction can be whatever you want it to be regardless of any applicable laws of physics or reasoning. Define it however you want, I really don't care. I am comfortable with my knowledge and understanding of the subject so I will leave you guru's to your own devices. Have fun.

[Jet-Lee]

Originally Posted by beef_bourito

i hope you know the speed of sound isn't constant, explain to me how you would tune an intake to work perfectly on different days with different temperatures, humidity factors, and pressure. also, when you inject nitrous into the intake you are ot forcing the nitrous to be injested, you are simply allowing the engine to injest it (which it will) and by doing so you are forcing more oxygen into the cylender by creating this oxygen rich environment.

(bold part) Thank you

The speed of sound is not constant, you are right. That's why you tune it so it is right before the valve opens. So on really humid days when sound moves faster, the pressure wave hasn't already bounced off, then on really dry days, the pressure wave is only slightly delayed. You also have to start the equation with the speed of sound related to your particular altitude and average pressure patterns for optimum performance. However, the changes in pressure/humidity/temperature and such are so minute, that the effective rpm range might change by a whole 50rpms, so small you you will not notice it one bit.

Originally Posted by astroracer

All I am doing is repeating myself over and over and this is getting stupid and boring. It seems the definition of forced induction can be whatever you want it to be regardless of any applicable laws of physics or reasoning. Define it however you want, I really don't care. I am comfortable with my knowledge and understanding of the subject so I will leave you guru's to your own devices. Have fun.

I coulda told you that much.

[Black Lotus]

Originally Posted by RatedX

Im a new guy and came here to learn something and this is what I see.
I hope all threads aren't like this.

Yes, it's a bit like trying to answer the question of - *how many angels can dance on the head of a pin*. (It's pointless (sic))
Seems like tempers are flaring up, and nobody has the courage to just stop and let the other guy have the last word. Typical internet argument. Blah, blah, blah.
Hope I quoted the right guy, like it matters....

[TurboPuma]

Me again, and what a great debate!

I think its fair to say that Nitrous (call it "Nitrous") and T / SC (call it "Forced Induction") both provide the combustion process with an oxygen rich environment. This in conjunction with more fuel provides a bigger bang than would otherwise happen.

Its a pity there is not a common term for this process, I was hoping, beyond hope it seems, this could be called "Forced Induction". Seeing as this is not the case would anybody care to invent a new term for it ?

[Jet-Lee]

Engine-Ade!!! Like Gatorade, but for the engine!



I don't have a fucking clue.

[nissanfanatic]

Originally Posted by TurboPuma

Me again, and what a great debate!

I think its fair to say that Nitrous (call it "Nitrous") and T / SC (call it "Forced Induction") both provide the combustion process with an oxygen rich environment. This in conjunction with more fuel provides a bigger bang than would otherwise happen.

Its a pity there is not a common term for this process, I was hoping, beyond hope it seems, this could be called "Forced Induction". Seeing as this is not the case would anybody care to invent a new term for it ?

I did. Power adder.

With turbochargers and many newer superchargers, you do have the option of when to boost and when not to. Turbo sizing and throttle position. Key is knowing what you want. I ride past 5500rpm off boost on occasion. Did it today. But I can have full boost at 4k if I choose. I like boost late.