Good Samaritan Gun Use

[DGB454]

Ok, Let's say we don't ban all guns just the ones that are used to kill people like ak47s and similar weapons. We could leave the sportsmans guns alone because they are out hunting animals and doing skeet shooting and fun things like that. That seems reasonable to me. Then we would be just like every other "non-violent" country in the world as far as gun control measures go wouldn't we?

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by Gotti

LMAO Have you ever heard of gun trafficking?! Criminals buy guns from other criminals, you dont have to call 1-800-AK47

If you took away everybodies gun in the US, criminals would still have theirs because they dont register them, the cops dont know who has illegal guns. There would always be gun trafficking, and criminals would still be able to get a gun if they wanted one. Tell me how you could stop that?

Tell me do where these guns come from.You're telling me nothing new when you say that crims buy and sell guns amomnst each other, but there's no arch criminal growing them on trees in the Nevada desert.They've all got to come from somewhere.If you want to tighten the supply of guns to criminals, you have to tighten the supply of all guns.Ignore the cretins who believe that they need a gun to protect themselves.One of the most ardent gun enthusiasts,Yogs, has already admitted that as a defence weapon his private armoury has proved this far to be superfluous.

Other nations manage perfectly adequately without genocidal levells of gun ownership.None of the pro-gun people in this forum have EVER come up with a valid reason why the US is different from the rest of the world.

[SniperX13]

one thing though taranaki, I am not sure if you have ever heard of the term "clean gun", but alot of times, when a gun is used for certain crimes, its a gun, that was stolen a long time ago, or gotten by other means numbers filed off, and then left in wait for many a years, so by the time its used, its either off the grid, or buried in the system for almost good. you can get rid of all the firearms, but it wont stop all the ones that are already out there hidden.

[SnoopisTDI]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Myth No. 12: Automatic rifles and so-called assault weapons are too dangerous to be left in private hands. Over the past 50 years no civilian has ever used a legally owned machine gun in a violent crime. And despite their repeated use by drug dealers on "Miami Vice" and in the movies, no Uzi has ever been used to kill a police officer. Even gun control advocates concede that so-called assault weapons play a minor role in violent crime.

I have to disagree with that part. There was one case of a civilian using a legally owned machine gun to commit a violent crime. He was a police officer.

Originally Posted by Taranaki

Tell me do where these guns come from.You're telling me nothing new when you say that crims buy and sell guns amomnst each other, but there's no arch criminal growing them on trees in the Nevada desert.They've all got to come from somewhere.

Some of them are stolen from people's homes or vehicles. This is true. But I don't know how many, maybe I can try to find some statistics on it. Just about everyone I know keeps their guns locked up- unless you can remove the bolts from the floor and carry a 400-1000lb safe(that's empty, so figure at least a hundred pounds inside of it), you're not getting them.

Some of them are stolen from police and other law enforcement, like this example. For a more comprehensive report on government guns disappearing, check out Hundreds of Guns Missing From Federal Police Agencies.

You also have a lot of guns brought into the country illegaly- they just ship it in with the marijuana and the mexicans.

Ok, on stolen guns: States with high crime see more guns stolen. Basically, 1.7million over 9.5 years, about 40% of which were recovered. From reading other articles, it seems a lot of them are stolen from gun stores(20%?). Someone steals a truck, drives it through the wall of a sporting goods store and disappears with 30 or 40 handguns. You also have guys like that one gun store owner from Indianapolis, who has guns "lost in a fire" that turn up in a murder in Gary 6 months later. Politics is the only reason that ex-Union thug isn't in prison. And of course there are people who make guns, but I don't think criminals in the US are making their own guns- yet.

So I guess that's 0.4% of the federal governments guns get stolen and 0.6% of the people's guns. Sounds like 99.4% of us are keeping our guns to ourselves. Still, 1.7mil stolen over nearly 10 years IS embarassing. I didn't know it was that high. At least everything I'm reading shows that the number of guns being stolen is decreasing steadily.

At the same time, I don't know anyone personally who has had a firearm stolen, although my dad did have a compound bow stolen from his van about 20 years ago. I am also a member of a few gun forums on-line, and rarely do I hear about any guns stolen.

Anyway, that's definitely an eye opener for me about how many guns are stolen. But just because some guy in Atlanta was too cheap to buy a safe is NO excuse to take away my right of self defense. Again, punish the criminal, not the responsible, law abiding citizen.

Originally Posted by DGB454

Ok, Let's say we don't ban all guns just the ones that are used to kill people like ak47s and similar weapons. We could leave the sportsmans guns alone because they are out hunting animals and doing skeet shooting and fun things like that. That seems reasonable to me. Then we would be just like every other "non-violent" country in the world as far as gun control measures go wouldn't we?

The "Ak47s and similar weapons" are rarely used to kill people. Assault weapons are used in about 3% of crimes involving firearms, and about 1/2 of one percent of violent crime in general.

[Twitch1]

And then we have the hypocrits that say one thing and do another http://www.sierratimes.com/05/03/06/ccrkba.htm

And the friggin media is real neutral right? http://www.sierratimes.com/05/03/22/jfreeman.htm

And while other countries attempt to save their citizens from themselves and they lock more of their population away and restrict firearms more as their violent crime escalates. You'd think they could see what's going on. The US is far from #1 in many, many categories of crime. #17 of 24 to be exact. A lot of those lovely provincial fairytale lands like Sweden and such are way ahead of us. Of course the anti-firearms folks never ever mention that. This is simply one of many coroberating studies...http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/f.../19/dantre.htm

[SnoopisTDI]

Originally Posted by Twitch1

And while other countries attempt to save their citizens from themselves and they lock more of their population away and restrict firearms more as their violent crime escalates. You'd think they could see what's going on. The US is far from #1 in many, many categories of crime. #17 of 24 to be exact. A lot of those lovely provincial fairytale lands like Sweden and such are way ahead of us. Of course the anti-firearms folks never ever mention that.

That's what I really don't understand. You have places like the UK where crime is rising, so they outlaw guns, which were hardly used in crime in the first place. Then crime continues to rise (surprise surprise), all the while the citizens have no means of self defense. If I was in a situation where crime was rising, the last thing I would want to do is give up my right to self defense.

[YogsVR4]

Most of the anti-gun crowd talk about how the crime rate in the US would drop if there were no guns on one side of their mouth but say the increase in crimes in the UK and elsewere (that have gun control) has nothing to do with the restrictions on guns. Either guns are behind the cause for the crime or they are not. They need to pick the side of the fence they are on. A rational person would know that the gun is a tool in the crime, not the motivating factor for it, but thats not how they present things.

[Twitch1]

Yogs, Snoopis- Anyone with normal rational deductive reasoning sees it that way. The antis are just blind to logic.


What is puzzling is why the hell persons from the countries with the "pretend" low crime stats even give a shit about the US's internal crimes. I mean I'm sure not losing sleep over Norway's drunk driving statistics, France's armed robberies or Sweden's exploding auto theft rates.

Perhaps it's simply some other agenda and this forum is an opportunity to snipe at the US in general.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by SnoopisTDI

I

The "Ak47s and similar weapons" are rarely used to kill people. Assault weapons are used in about 3% of crimes involving firearms, and about 1/2 of one percent of violent crime in general.

You are getting ahead of me. I was going to try and slowly lead people to that end but you got there before I did.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by Twitch1

Yogs, Snoopis- Anyone with normal rational deductive reasoning sees it that way. The antis are just blind to logic.


What is puzzling is why the hell persons from the countries with the "pretend" low crime stats even give a shit about the US's internal crimes. I mean I'm sure not losing sleep over Norway's drunk driving statistics, France's armed robberies or Sweden's exploding auto theft rates.

Perhaps it's simply some other agenda and this forum is an opportunity to snipe at the US in general.

aaaaaaaaaaaaw, how sweet...it's the tired old 'anti America' argument again.First you accuse us of not having logic, then you argue that we are irrationally hatin' on the US in general.

Would it be too much to ask you to just grow up and stop talking shit, Twitch? You want logic, here's logic .I don't like guns.50% of the firearms IN THE WHOLE DAMN WORLD ARE IN THE HANDS OF ONE COUNTRY.So tell me, genius, if I want to see guns treated with a bit more common sense where do I logically start?No, not America, try my own country.Before criticising anyone elses' way of life, you make sure that your own back yard is tidy.And I've proven that to be the case time and again, despite the best efforts of the spin mercharts from the pro-gun brigade.

Lets look at some of the flat lies that you have told rather than face up to the possibility that someone else might have better ideas..

You've said I'm anti-American.YOU'RE WRONG. I despise morons. If that moron happens to be American then so be it. I don't have a problem with most of the Americans that I deal with because most of them are not morons.

You've said I'm out to take away your right to defend yourself.WRONG AGAIN. i've outlined the way thins are here and pointed out that your need for self defence would be greatly readuced if it wasn't so eadsy for criminals in the States to arm themselves.

You've said that I want to take America's guns away.WRONG AGAIN.Unless you are a moron, in which case you should never have been allowed one in the first case.

You've used all the bullshit stock answers, the cut/paste excuses from pro-gun interests, the tired old cliches put out by scumbags like the NRA.I've yet to see one original thought worth shit from you.In short, you are an unpaid mouthpiece for the gun industry.You must be so proud.

I came to this forum with the belief that if American legislators took a little bit more responsibility for the safety of their own citizens and put a few basic pieces of legislation in place, then maybe they could start to steer the average American toward the safe and appropriate use of firearms.What I got in return was the braying of hardcore gun nuts like Twitch, who will tell any number of lies about me when their argument somewhat predictably falls on its face.

If you want to debate,Twitch,bring it on.If you'd rather lie and yell,I suggest you go find another outlet.You're not mentally or socially capable of debating this argument,and ideologically,you don't have a shit show of winning it.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Most of the anti-gun crowd talk about how the crime rate in the US would drop if there were no guns on one side of their mouth but say the increase in crimes in the UK and elsewere (that have gun control) has nothing to do with the restrictions on guns. Either guns are behind the cause for the crime or they are not. They need to pick the side of the fence they are on. A rational person would know that the gun is a tool in the crime, not the motivating factor for it, but thats not how they present things.

An intelligent person would tell you that there are three factors to any crime

Motive
Means
Opportunity.

Take a look at the second one.Some skinny punk wants to rob a bank.If he is unarmed, he lacks the means.

Take a look at the third one.A mugger wants your car.If he's unarmed, and you are locked in, he lacks both the opportunity to take control of your vehicle, and the means of forcing you to surrender it.

An intelligent person would tell you that all classes of crime are on the increase in most countries, with or without gun control.There is no logical connection between crime levels and gun control. The correlation is between the availability of firearms and the nature and consequenses of the crime.If Yogs left his gun at home and got hit by a bus, it does not logically follow that the bus hit him because he wasn't carrying his firearm.Those who choose to point to other countries' rising crime rates conveniently overlook the fact that their own countries' statistics are so far ahead that their argument makes no sense.This country could have a 100% increase in violent crime overnight and still be safer than theirs.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by taranaki

An intelligent person would tell you that all classes of crime are on the increase in most countries, with or without gun control..

I agree with your point in your post. Obvoiusly, removing a tool of the criminal makes it more difficult for them to function.

However, it is a common fallacy to believe that crime levels are increasing.
At least in Canada and the US, overall crime rates per capita peaked in 1977 in both countries and have been on the decline ever since. This includes almost all kinds of violent crime.

Sure sociologists and criminoligists would be delighted if they could actually credit this trend to certain specific factors, or functions of society.

Certainly gun control very likely plays a part in this trend, but so does the efforts of the judicial system to lock criminals away and deter crime through better education, better standards of living and better social welfare systems, especially for our youth.

And twitch, since I am a gun owner, I must say that fart jokes do not help the pro-gun side of this debate. I am sure you can come up with a better rebuttal than that.

[Twitch1]

Rat- you're precisely right about Canada. Check this link- both pages- and click on all the hyperlinks for full info.

Oh, the other bit? I just refuse to communicate directly with lying hatemongers or read their socialist propaganda. Check the other topic posts from all the others on "gun myths" here and deceide for yourself if we haven't quelled whatever naive opposition there may be.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by Twitch1

Oh, the other bit? I just refuse to communicate directly with lying hatemongers or read their socialist propaganda. Check the other topic posts from all the others on "gun myths" here and deceide for yourself if we haven't quelled whatever naive opposition there may be.

If you really believe that indirect sniping is a better way to debate, you have even less relevance than I first thought.Having read your somewhat childish post about flatulence before you so bravely deleted it, it confirms my opinion of your inability to debate like an adult.As for the other posts on "gun myths", they simply prove that firearms fetishists know how to cut and paste ideas that are in the interests of their puppet masters.Please,Twitch, either participate, or go away.Hiding behingd the trash cans hurling abuse at those you disagree with is just a little bit lame.This topic is clearly over with the oxymoron of gun control being duplicated in other threads, the thread is now closed, thank you to all of the posters who contributed something useful.And thank you,Twitch,for making me laugh.