In defense of the Fiero (and my time)

[series8217]

I came across these forums in a google search for the engine I'm putting in my '88 Fiero. The thread I found had lots of misinformation about Fieros and the 3.4 TDC. So I wrote up a reply. Then I went to sign up on here. Whaddya know? I found the thread and it turned out to be two years old. So here I am posting my reply anyway. The original thread is here so you can see the context:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/t44097.html

And here's how it went.
(the quote my reply started with is from the thread)

Originally Posted by Cbass

The Fiero is the perfect place to start if you want something that looks, sounds and performs like a Ferrari for less than $10,000. [Ferrari body kits] are not cheap, there are some low budget kits out there, but they are heavy and badly constructed.

There is one option than may be less cost-prohibitive than a full bodykit besides the nose described below. There was a dealer option (but not really factory authorized) developed in 87... a 308 (if I recall correctly; may have been another model Ferrari) body kit on a Fiero sold as the "Mera". There are still a few of these roaming around. They retain the Fiero interior and whatnot, and have some good looking Ferrari replica rims. They go for somewhere between $7000 and $13000 depending on modifications, mileage, and condition. This prevents you from having to do all the fabrication necessary to get the kit built onto a car.

Originally Posted by Cbass

Something to consider, get yourself an 88 GT Fiero, this is the model with the Lotus engineered suspension, and uprated brakes. It'll cost you maybe $3000 CDN for one in good shape, but with a rough engine. Don't worry, if it's not in that good shape, keep a few things in mind. They don't rust, and if anything brakes, you can replace it with an upgraded part for about the same money.

Don't believe everything you hear. The Lotus-designed suspension is a myth. Lotus had nothing to do with the suspension design for the 88's, in fact the suspension had already been designed before the Fiero was released. GM decided to bring out the Fiero with an inexpensive option; parts from other cars. This resulted in really crappy handling because they had to make the front end worse to compensate for the awful back end, to make sure the car still had understeer. In 1988 the Fiero got the suspension that was designed for it in the first place, including 4-wheel vented disc brakes and a multi-link setup in the rear instead of control arms. This has all been confirmed by Fiero enthusiasts from GM interviews and most prominently by Hulki, the father of the Fiero, at the 20th Anniversary Fiero Show.
The 88's handle reaaaalllllyyy well. I would personally never consider buying an earlier year because of the benefits of the 88 suspension.
Rust isn't an issue with the body panels but the steel spaceframe certainly rusts. One of the most common locations for rust on these cars is the battery tray under the right decklid vent. Not a big deal. There are kits available to move the battery to the front under the spare tire for under $100. This improves weight distribution and frees up the original battery area for the computer or ingnition coils or whatever else if you swap in a different engine... like the 3.4 TDC.

Originally Posted by Cbass

If you're into swaps, there is a direct bolt in swap for the Fiero 2.8 motor, from Monte Carlo Z34s, and earlier Grand Prix GTPs. This is called the 3.4 TDC, and in stock form developes 215hp. Comes with a good Getrag 5 speed, and a nice clutch too. Directly replaces the Fiero drive unit, with minor modifications anyone can do.

It bolts up to the 88 motor mounts and transmission. Coolant and fuel lines have to be figured out... not too hard to do. Wiring takes awhile but isn't too hard. Just splice this wire here, that wire there. Put the ECM in the original battery location after you move the battery to the front. Exhaust system isn't something anyone can do, but its not too expensive to have a shop do it. Expect to pay between
$100 and $300 for an adequate exhaust system for the 3.4 TDC.

Originally Posted by Cbass

What not a lot of people know, is that the 3400 TDC was designed to replace the LT1 for Camaros and Firebirds, and was making 275 hp before they detuned it because their automatic transaxles couldn't handle the power, and they weren't going to have a second assembly line for manuals. The 275 hp is easily regained with a simple chip, available from any good GM tuner, and with other minor changes, the thing can make more than 300hp in a 2800lb car(feel like smoking that rich kid's Ferrari?).

Again, don't believe everything you hear. One guy has a site that claims the motor originally made 275 hp and was detuned in the computer and now half the 60* V6 community thinks its true! It absolutely is not. If any detuning took place it was in the cams and intake. A chip will not give the engine 275 hp even with significant changes like a free-flowing exhaust and CAI. It is not possible to make that much power with the stock intake manifold, normally aspirated. If GM had a version of this motor that made 275 hp is was SIGNIFICANTLY different from the motor sold on production cars.

Originally Posted by Cbass

The 2.8 Fiero is a good looking car, but it has one really weak styling point. The "aero" nose. I really like Fieros, but that nose is just damn ugly. However, there is a company that does body kits called Pisa Corp, www.cybercars.com/fierohq.html that offers a Ferrari F355 nose for the car for $300 US.

Ditto. I hate the aero nose too. However, that F355 nose is just so loooonngggg... there don't appear to be any aftermarket solutions that provide a shorter nose, though. Too bad. Also take a look at Norm's front end. It replaces the hood, front fascia, and fenders.
www.normsfiberglass.com.

Originally Posted by Cbass

Pretty nice, huh? Still has one big drawback though. The wheel wells have about inch or so of extra space, and the wheels are only 15x7".
The advantage is the Trans Am GTA had the same style wheels, except they were 16X8", and will allow you to run a 225/50/16 on the front, and a 245/50/16 on the back. You can also drop the car an inch with lowering springs.
...
To do the wheel swap, you have to change the wheel cylinders and hubs over to the Transams, and take the brakes as well. This requires minor mods, but any good brake/suspension shop should be able to do it.

Stock 88 Fiero wheels are 15x6 37mm offset up front, 15x7 35mm offset rear. You can not switch over to Transam wheel hubs on an 88 Fiero either. This is something that may be possible with earlier years, but not with the 88 design because of the way the spindles are set up.
Even if you could, with the Trans Am wheels being RWD offset, they would stick out so much it'd look ridiculous. They'd be far beyond even that PISA front end. What you can do with the 88 is get some wheels with less offset that are also wider. These are easy to find. Looking for replacements with a stock setup without getting ones that stick outside the fender is a pain in the ass. The offset required for a 7" wide rim is 48mm to get it to not stick out further than the stock Fiero rims. Very few wheels are available in that offset and size that do not have the smaller Subaru centerbore.
What you CAN do easily with the 88 Fieros is switch over to the 12" corvette brake rotors and retain the stock calipers. You simply make centering rings for the rotots and have them drilled for the Fiero's 5x100 bolt pattern. Then make brackets that shift the calipers out enough to clear the rotor. This increases the caliper's leverage and also reduces brake fade because of the larger rotor. West Coast Fieros also sells a kit for this.

Originally Posted by Cbass

Car ----------------------------------------------- $2500
Engine -------------------------------------------- $1500
Wheels/brakes/cylinders ------------------------ $1000
Really good tires --------------------------------- $1000
Suspension work(shocks, springs) ------------- $1000
Chip(70hp) --------------------------------------- $600
F355 Nose ----------------------------------------- $400

It all can all be done bit by bit too, replace the brakes when they need to be done, upgrade the wheels when your tires wear out and so on.

Looks about right. I paid $2000 for my 88 Fiero with 25,000 miles on it. I have about $1400 into my 3.4 TDC swap so far and still need to get a clutch ($200), timing belt + pulleys (must be replaced every 60,000 miles or less; $150), and exhaust system ($200). Getting wider rims can be done without trying to install hubs you can't, but $1000 is about right if you want some REALLY good rims, plus $1000 for ridiculously good tires. Suspension is fairly inexpensive if you do the work yourself. All polyurethane bushings are available for under $100, but you will have trouble finding other suspension parts. The disadvantage of the 88 is that you can't get parts easily or cheaply. It has a very unique suspension as it was the first and only year to have it (the 88 was the last year for Fieros). $600 for a chip? Yeah right. I paid $35 to have mine programmed for the Fiero's VSS and to adjust some fan values and a few other things. But you wont get more than 5 or 10 hp from any chip for this engine.. or any other I can think of for that matter.
You really can't get a ridiculously cool looking or performing car for dirt cheap, but you can certainly get something decent by putting $3000 into a Fiero. It'll look cool, sound cool, and perform very well. Want something else? 80's Corvettes can be had cheaply. You wont find a Viper in your price range though.



Well, hopefully now writing the reply wasn't a complete waste of time

[fierangero]

my 86 handles better than any car i or my friends have ever driven, so to say anything before 88 handles like crap is a lie. not to mention my car has 4 wheel vented discs as well. im not doubting that the 88 handles the best, but its heavier, and, at least around here, they go for upwards of 4000 for a fixer-upper. im probably going to be spending about 10k on my 86, and, add that to the 1500 i paid for the car, it will be pretty darn competitive with your 88.

[series8217]

Originally Posted by fierangero

my 86 handles better than any car i or my friends have ever driven, so to say anything before 88 handles like crap is a lie. not to mention my car has 4 wheel vented discs as well. im not doubting that the 88 handles the best, but its heavier, and, at least around here, they go for upwards of 4000 for a fixer-upper. im probably going to be spending about 10k on my 86, and, add that to the 1500 i paid for the car, it will be pretty darn competitive with your 88.

Your car is obviously not stock. I'm sure your 86 handles just as well as a stock 88 now. I was just referring to stock or same level of modification. Put $1000 into an 86 and $1000 into an 88 and the 88 will still be on top.
Out of curiousity, what brake upgrade did you go with to get vented brakes?

-Steven

[fierangero]

i didnt upgrade anything, i bought it for 1500 in december, i havent done a thing to it

[series8217]

Originally Posted by fierangero

i didnt upgrade anything, i bought it for 1500 in december, i havent done a thing to it

84-87 had solid rotors front and rear. So if you have vented rotors then the previous owner upgraded them with one of the many available kits and didn't tell you about it... I hope you can figure out what calipers they used so you can install new pads when you need to. Got any pics of the calipers/rotors? I should be able to identify them.
BTW, I bought my 88 in Sunnyvale for $2000 with 25,000 miles on it. It just needed paint and a windshield. 88s aren't expensive around here. There was even a complete 88 Formula 5spd at the Newark Pick-N-Pull for awhile. It just needed wheels and tires.. the engine had been rebuilt. The yard wanted no more than $1k for it.

-Steven

[fierangero]

Originally Posted by series8217

84-87 had solid rotors front and rear. So if you have vented rotors then the previous owner upgraded them with one of the many available kits and didn't tell you about it... I hope you can figure out what calipers they used so you can install new pads when you need to. Got any pics of the calipers/rotors? I should be able to identify them.
BTW, I bought my 88 in Sunnyvale for $2000 with 25,000 miles on it. It just needed paint and a windshield. 88s aren't expensive around here. There was even a complete 88 Formula 5spd at the Newark Pick-N-Pull for awhile. It just needed wheels and tires.. the engine had been rebuilt. The yard wanted no more than $1k for it.

-Steven

hmm...when was this? i was looking for decently priced fieros for a year or so before i finally found mine. it had 145k miles, needed a lot of electrical work (gauges werent too accurate, speedo was off by 50mph, looked like previous engine damage) for 1500. the only other ones i found were like 4-5k for GTs 86-88, and in not-much-better condition. i've been to that pick-n-pull a lot in the last year (since its about 10 minutes away), and while i admit i didnt look at the complete car section (i spent most of my time pulling seats in the ford section), i woulda noticed somethin like that. im by no means callin you a liar (and i apologize if i did in a previous post, a minor overreaction on my part, but i get defensive when people call my car(s) crap), im just apprehensive.

[series8217]

Originally Posted by fierangero

hmm...when was this? i was looking for decently priced fieros for a year or so before i finally found mine. it had 145k miles, needed a lot of electrical work (gauges werent too accurate, speedo was off by 50mph, looked like previous engine damage) for 1500. the only other ones i found were like 4-5k for GTs 86-88, and in not-much-better condition. i've been to that pick-n-pull a lot in the last year (since its about 10 minutes away), and while i admit i didnt look at the complete car section (i spent most of my time pulling seats in the ford section), i woulda noticed somethin like that. im by no means callin you a liar (and i apologize if i did in a previous post, a minor overreaction on my part, but i get defensive when people call my car(s) crap), im just apprehensive.

I got my car in July of 2003. I think prices have gone up a bit since then... but I do know of a guy in Morgan Hill that keeps getting good deals on 88s, so they are certainly still out there. I was actually not shopping for a Fiero when I found mine. My Taurus had just spun its last rev and I needed a new car to take me to school. My dad printed out a page he saw on Autotrader so we went to check it out and ended up buying it as it seemed like a good deal.

I can't find my receipts from when I bought the swaybar and instrument pod out of the 88 Formula in the Newark Pick-N-Pull, but it was still there when I got some doors in September 2004, as I recall grabbing a door panel off it. It definitely isn't there anymore; I walked over almost the whole yard a few weeks ago looking for it. I was hoping to get the cradle. I think it even had the tranny still on it the last time I saw it. Aww.. I shoulda grabbed that! It was an easy car to miss.. keep in mind Formulas have the later coupe body. They aren't fastbacks; they really look nothing like your GT.. also, someone had painted over the whole car in a dull rust-colored primer. It looked pretty bad, but I guess it was better than ugly peeling clear coat. It even had a for sale sign scribbled on it. I think the seller was asking $800 before they got a flat and left the car on the side of a road someplace (one of the tires and rims was toast). Besides cosmetics it seemed to just need wheels and tires though.
The Fieros hang out in the small GM section, right next to the Fords if I remember correctly. They're usually in the further rows. There weren't too many last time I was there. The north San Jose yard usually has only one or two (if any!) but south San Jose is much better. I often find three or four whenever I go and last I checked there were two with V6s!

I didn't mean any offense to 84-87 owners when I said the earlier Fieros got really crappy handling. I was just trying to point out why the 84-87 had the suspension they did and what the result was of the use of those parts. I guess I should have made it more clear that by calling the handling crappy I was really only trying to relate it to other Fieros. 84-87 Fieros handle a lot better than many cars on the road. I've driven with earlier year Fieros and they can usually keep up well enough on most roads. These were modified cars, though I don't know to what degree. 88s mprove upon everything the 84-87s did well, and fix issues such as the dangerous bump steer (which can be helped on pre-88s by kits that are available from Held, RCC, and probably other vendors). Besides fixing the bump steer, the ease of steering, ride comfort, overall handling, AND braking are all improved on the 88s.

BTW, I took a look at your Cardomain page and it looks to me like you have stock and calipers and brake rotors (solid). If you are interested in upgrading to vented brakes and larger rotors, I know that West Coast Fieros and V8 Archie sell upgrade kits. Held and RCC probably do as well. You can also just find a list of stuff to get online and just find it all in the salvage yard (this is what I would do). Check out this site for info on one of the brake upgrades you could do from junkyard parts: http://www.fieroaddiction.com/brakes.html (scroll down about halfway).

-Steven