Radiator/Oil problems - what 2 know b4 I blame the mechanic?

[stradeteox]

Hey All,

I need some help and advice on a problem that got much worse after the mechanic apparently did not do what I was charged for:

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I want to give all of the details before I go blaming (and epecting rembursment from) the last place that worked on my 1996 Grand Prix.

On Christmas day we had traveled 2 hours to visit releatives with no vehicle problems at all. 6 hours later we decided to warm up the car before leaving and within 10 minutes noticed the vehicle running warm and cold air coming from the heater. Suspecting low colant, I took it to the nearest convient store (that luckily was open on Christmas) and added about 1 gallon of coolant/water to refill the low radiator. The vehicle had never overheated at this point and was obviously low on coolant. I did not find any sign of any leaking and do not know how long it had been low (this car is new to us). This is however the first time the car was warm and with no heat.

I noticed the radiator and overflow tank was terribly dirty and had a lot of rusty "gunk" floating in it. The heater now worked fine and still the car was not overheating so we proceeded home. The vehicle ran fine, never overheated and did not loose any coolant. I checked it constantly on the way home to be sure.

The car was not driven at all the next day (sunday). I decided the coolant system had to be flushed and Monday morning it was taken to Express Oil change (by my wife) who said they could flush and fill the cooling system while changing the oil. She was planning on driving 2 hours to visit relatives and this was a must fix before going.

After changing the oil, the moron who had been servicing the car came up to my wife and said "your coolant looks dirty and is weak". She told him "I know, that is why I also wanted the radiator flushed and filled". To which the moron replied "oh yeah, I forgot".

An hour and a half later, they told her it was finished, charged her for the service and $20 more for rmoving and cleaning the overflow tank and sent her on her way. We assumed all was fine and drove the car with no problems for another 3 days.

On the 4th day after the service, my wife was again going to visit relatives 2 hours away and got only 40 miles into the trip when the vehicle began to overheat (temperature gauge maxed out and the check engine light came on). Se pulled over and called a tow truck. The tow truck took it to a local gas station who checked the coolant and said it was full but terribly contaminated and dirty. She told them it had just been flushed and they told her sorry, but it doesn't look like it has been changed at all. The vehicle started fine and they told her maybe she had a blown head gasket, but it had no smoke or anything. They did not need to add any coolant and did not find any contaminated oil on the dipstick. They were just a small gas station and told her that as long as she pulled over and allowed the car to cool down (if it got hot), she would not have any problems getting home.

Well, she made it home after stopping 3 times to cool down. When I found out, I immediately checked the radiator and found it completely crappy with the same rusty sludge floating on top as I had seen 4 days earlier. There was absolutely no sign af any "new" coolant anywhere. The morom at Express Oil Change had even charged an extra $20 to remove and clean the overflow tank and that had obviously never been done as it is still filthy and none of the screws or support bar look as if they have ever been touched.

I suspect the original coolant was in serious need of a flush and fill and eventually clogged the thermostat (causing blockage and the first overheating). That would explain the heater not working until I added coolant. Then, whatever the moron at Express Oil Change did, he did not properly flush the system. That is, turn the heater on full, warm the engine, and flush untill the system has clear water running out. They should have then filled it and checked the heater and continued to add collant and bleed the system. It appears as though nothing was ever done to the cooling system.

If this had been done, there is no way the coolant would look the same 4 days later (not to mention the dirty, untouched overflow tank). Also, the Express Oil Change never mentioned any problems, leaks or any contamination of the oil. They suppossedly changed that too.

Now, I have a vehicle with both contaminated coolant and contaminated oil (it's milky at the fill cap, but looks fine on the dipstick). The heater is again not working and there are signs that the cooling system is overheating and overflowing (bubling out of the overflow - rusty in color and the radiator still has rustly sludge making ist way to the top).

I need to know; is the head gasket now blown? Should the moron at Express Oil change have noticed anything (such as a blocked thermostat)? Am I correct in assuming that the coolant could not have possibly been flushed (judging by the appearance and the overflow tank)? Sholuld they be liable for repairs, towing and a rental car?

My receipt shows I was charged for the services, mentions no contamination, leaks or low levels of fluids and only has the comment "coolant system contaminated, possible coolant problems in the future" (which was noted before they performed the flush and fil service - which I doubt was ever done).

PLEASE HELP WITH ANY REPLIES, SUGGESTIONS, AND WHETHER ANYONE AGREES WITH ME ON WHAT HAS HAPPENNED. I DO NOT WANT TO DRIVE THIS VEHICLE AT ALL FOR FEAR OF MORE DAMAGE AND WANT THE EXPRESS OIL CHANGE TO HAVE IT TOWED IN FOR REPAIRS (IF THEY WILL ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY).

Am I over reacting or should this have been caught and prevented? Thanks and sorry for the HUGE post.

[Kooterskkar]

First, go down there and raise hell about it to a manager. Get your money back because they obvioulsy didnt flush the cooling system like your wife PAID them to do. Check the oil yourself and see if it is clean oil. If its not they didnt change that either. ALso look at the filter. If it looks dirty and covered with gunk/oil residue, its not new. Never go there again even if they offer you something for free or a big discount.

Second, your coolant leak sounds like a bad intake manifold gasket. It happens often with GM v6 engines. (im assuming its got a 3100 under the hood) Its not a big deal and can be replaced even by a novice mechanic. Just takes some time.

[ryansm1]

The lower intake manifold gasket is likely the problem.

If you have a 3100, the gasket supposedly goes around 130k miles. I had to replace mine two weeks ago.

My oil was contaminated with coolant (smell some of your oil on the dipstick), and looks very milky, and my oil level was well past the full marking. My coolant also had oil in it, and smelled like oil.

I wouldn't blame the mechanics immediately; my oil was fine when I checked it one day, and then, three days later, when the heater didn't work, I added some water to the radiator (don't particularly need antifreeze this far down in Texas). The car drove fine; I never noticed a thing. It was just peculiar that I had a leak. It could just be that it hadn't quite gone when they had serviced it, though it seems unlikely. It doesn't take long to contaminate the coolant with oil, though.

Anyway, the job is not particularly difficult if you are mechanically inclined (or just patient). If you do it yourself, you will need to buy a new set of gaskets for the intake manifold, 8, 10, 13, and I think 15mm sockets (deep sockets help for the 10 and 13mm, I think the 15mm is for the oil pan drain plug), and a torque wrench. I used a few other tools (crescent wrench, etc.), but they are common tools. I still have all the pictures I took of mine as I tore it down, so if you would like to try it, I can send you all of them (45 pictures or so) and help you out.

I think I spent about $120 or so for the whole job, and it took about three days.

I don't know how much you would be looking at to have a mechanic do it, but it wouldn't be cheap, since the job takes a while, as Kooterskkar stated. The one I consulted wanted $1100 (rape on that one) for the job.

For what it's worth, I am only 17, and this was my first experience with the engine itself (I had not even changed the oil myself before trying the job). The car is running fine now.

Hope this helps.

Edit:

I did use www.60degreev6.com quite a bit; the people there were very friendly and helping.

[Tech_n]

How do you know when you need a manifold gasket? Do the muffler make any kind of noise? When can you tell?

[carnutcass]

There have been hundreds of write-ups about the problems with Dexcool coolant......you know, the orange stuff. Some dealership mechanics even say the stuff is crap. It contaminates easily, and does not mix well with other types of coolant.

If it were me, the first thing I'd do is talk to the manager at the Express Oil Change place. A friend of mine used to manage a Jiffy Lube and he told me that they have discretionary funds budgeted for rectifying these type of situations. Mention the fact that you were far from home and that the over-flow tank bolts look untouched.

If the manager won't play ball, get an affidavit from the country gas station who said the system looked untouched. Give the Express Oil Change manager another chance to correct the situation.....hinting that your next steps are to contact an attorney, the Better Business Bureau, State Attorney General's office, Express Oil's corporate office, and complaints.com. He'll probably fix your car just to shut you up. I'm not advocating a "Something for nothing" mentality, you've already paid for these services.

Assuming you no longer have any kind of warranty covering your car, try to get him to flush and refill the cooling system with the standard green stuff.

It's always good to go into these types of negotiations armed with information. Oh, and lastly, promise yourself that you'll never go to a quick lube place again. You don't want to trust your car to someone who can quit and go to across the street to Taco Bell and make the same money.

Here's a few links about the Dexcool problems.
http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.as...de=&s=#1816515

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/autom...m_dexcool.html

http://www.cwcd.com/CM/MassTorts/MassTorts5.asp

[ryansm1]

Originally Posted by Tech_n

How do you know when you need a manifold gasket? Do the muffler make any kind of noise? When can you tell?

When the lower intake manifold's gasket goes, the oil and coolant mixes. My oil level was very high (maybe two inches over the last 'L' in full), and was milky (think coffee with lots of creamer). My coolant kept leaking, but had no signs of it leaking from the car, it just kept disappearing. When the coolant smells like oil or vice versa, they're mixing because of some gasket going out.

If you aren't having a lot of white smoke coming from your exhaust, or aren't leaking water out the exhaust pipe, but are losing coolant and can't find it, check the oil levels. If it's really high/strange colors/smell, it's a strong possibility that the lower intake manifold gasket is gone. If you are losing coolant but are having white smoke/water in exhaust, the head gasket is probably out (so I'm told).

[pressurerat]

Originally Posted by Tech_n

How do you know when you need a manifold gasket? Do the muffler make any kind of noise? When can you tell?

The lower intake is the manifold in question.....not the exhaust. The intake wont cause 'muffler' noise, but exhaust manifold gaskets will.