Faith and Politics

[Savage Messiah]

First off I would like to personally ask you to stop with this whole pothead tirade. It's tiring and I have no clue where you get it from.

This country was formed with a sepeation of church and state. It should be kept that way.

I myself have nothign against religious people; but it has no place being involved in politics. Many Middle East governments are set up based on religion and run that way; we are currently in the process of removing those. Why the hypocrisy? Personal beliefs have no place in the well being of a nation.

[MagicRat]

Although this is a very interesting discussion, it applies almost exclusively to American politics. Much of the rest of the democratic world manages to separate the two realms of religion and politics veryt effectively; more so than the US does.

This is ironic because the US is the only country (to my knowledge) that has made a deliberate, legislative effort to separate the two.

Case in point - Canada and Britain almost NEVER has any political issue, position or person, left or right, involve religion in any campaign or issue ever.

It is not done. Furthermore, most Canadians consider the US to be somewhat strange and unusual that American politicians are so willing to involve religion in the political arena.

I am suspicious of a politician invoking God or religious issues and concepts in public life because IMHO is is too transparently manipulative of the people by that politician.

Furthermore, a religious politican may have a religious agenda, above and beyond that which is good for the nation or the electorate.

There are so many sound and logical reasons why separation or church and state is a valuable principle.

[Savage Messiah]

Also I think myself that if a person cannot have morals without religion, that person needs to strengthen their mind and will. I don't think religion is a prerequisite of ethics and morals; you don't need an excuse to be a good person.

[lazysmurff]

hmmm.

religion and politics. i have no problem with politicians being religious, and even with them asserting their religious beliefs. as long as they realize not everyone is of the same religion, or even religious, and they dont let it get in the way of politics.

aloharockey, you would have you believe the left is severely opposed to religion. however, you ever so descretely (intentionally or not) use the words "religion" and "morals" interchangably. to do so is a mistake. so is saying that liberals have declared war on chrisitans. perhaps you've never heard of the REV. jesse jackson, or the REV al sharpton? actually come to think of it, the majority of die hard liberals i know affiliate with a chrisitan church of some kind.

it is furthermore a mistake to blatantly generalize a gathering of leftists as dope smoking "free mumia" college types, and then get all denfensive when people call bush supporters "dumb rednecks".

also, Dean is not a raving sissy. actually do some reading on his positions and you might get along with him a little more.

now, to my most important comment id like to make. it is NOT necessary to have religion to have a ethical belief system. religion is not the origin of values, virtues, morals, and ethics. i really wish people would actually do some research into this stuff before spouting off such ridiculous statements. id be more than happy to prepare an essay examining this point if you would like me to...like i said before, shoot me a PM and i'll get on it. this is what i do, im a philosophy major afterall.

[Murco]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

Dean is not a raving sissy. actually do some reading on his positions and you might get along with him a little more..

I actually liked Dean more than any other Democrat in the last race. I don't agree with his politics but it was fun watching him start erupting!!

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

this is what i do, im a philosophy major afterall.

"Philosophers sit and think.... mostly sit!" Who wrote that? lol
BTW, Jackson and Sharpton don't even have churches!!

[lazysmurff]

Originally Posted by Murco

I actually liked Dean more than any other Democrat in the last race. I don't agree with his politics but it was fun watching him start erupting!!

my "dean in '08" shirt is already in the mail

Originally Posted by Murco

"Philosophers sit and think.... mostly sit!"

actually philosophers do a lot. like make sure to ask whether or not you want fries, if thats will be for here or to go, and we make sure our english major cohorts keep the burgers flippin'

[Murco]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

actually philosophers do a lot. like make sure to ask whether or not you want fries, if thats will be for here or to go, and we make sure our english major cohorts keep the burgers flippin'

I feel your pain! I thought I was hot shit with my masters in economics, until I tried to find a job with it outside of Washington D.C. (useless)!!!

[Murco]

Originally Posted by 97CamaroRS

Also I think myself that if a person cannot have morals without religion, that person needs to strengthen their mind and will.

I'm sure this will sound closed-minded, but it's honest.. I would never trust someone who was an atheist with my property.
At least give me points for honesty here, I just cannot trust someone without the religious grounding that I live my life by. If they don't have a belief system with standards of behavior that I am familiar with, they cannot earn my trust. This is not to say I haven't been boned by people of faith, I have...
It's not that Atheists are dishonest, I just can't measure their honesty with an unfamiliar scale.
One more time, not an attack, just how I think...

[LEGO MY E]

What is "Separation of Church And State"? Here's one way to look at it;

My God's Law (that is, God Jehovah, God Jesus Christ, the God that America was founded on... you with me?) contains 10 commandments. The first four commandments deal with our relationship with Him. The last 6 deal with our relationship with our fellow man. (Unless you are going by the Catholic 10 commandments which were changed due to the idolatry and Sabbath commandments, in which case it's a 3/7 split).

So what is the problem with morality in the United States? I would present that the laws against stealing, rape, murder, etc... are not enforced. People are not taught right from wrong. Lawbreakers laugh at their "punishment" most of the time, since it's usually just a slap on the wrist (if even that).

What about Separation of Church And State? Well, no Government should DARE enforce the first 4 commandments (IF you worship, WHO you worship, WHAT DAY you worship, HOW you worship, etc...). Observance of these laws is, and should remain, between humans and their creator; NOT their Government! Asking our Government to enforce the first 4 of the 10 commandments is just BEGGING for dictatorship. What, do we all now have to answer to Inquisitors if we do laundry on Sunday? God Forbid!

(By the way, feel free to "fill in the blanks" above with the God you acknowledge, if you have one. The principle is the same regardless)

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now!

[Savage Messiah]

Well Murco true that's honest and I respect your opinion no matter how much I disagree with it. [Class in 20 min so more fun later lol]

[Pewter'01SS]

I pretty much agree with everything that TRD2000 said. I am far less likely to vote for someone who keeps professing their religion mainly due to the amazing amount of hypocrisy that usually accompanies it.

God loves all His children is what they tell you then they tell you homosexuals are all going to burn in hell, guess God doesn't love them too much. That's a bunch of crap. I am religious and I refuse to hate someone who is in a loving, consentual relationship with someone else. People profess their love of God and then go and shoot an abortion doctor. Murco, why wouldn't you trust an atheist, how many atheists do you think are in prision for violent crimes? I don't know but I'm willing to bet it is far outnumbered by the amout of christians.

I have nothing wrong with people who are deeply religious but when they wish death of other people who, in their view, go against the word of God, thats wrong. And, please don't think that I'm a far leftist, I'm not. These ACLU a**holes want "under God" removed from the pledge because it "infringes on their civil liberties", shut the f*** up!
Don't people have something better to do with their lives than to write letters!?! "Oh my God! I saw a breast on TV for 1/100th of a second!" "There is a country song about adultry, that's condoning it" or "the ten commandments is on the wall of the court house, I FEEL VIOLATED!" Get a life people. This is nothing about morals or ethics, this is about people who like to write letters and complain. Most of the country has a live and let live attitude but their are a few people on each side that dictate how the rest of the country lives.

As for politicians, they know how passionate some people are about their faith so this becomes the reason to vote for them. I don't agree with this, I think its a way of deverting from the real issues that effect the country. 35% of Bush supporters voted that way for "Moral Issues". And it goes both way, Kerry running his campaign from churches, WTF.

uhhh...LEGO MY E...you can have your soap box back now.

[Murco]

Originally Posted by Pewter'01SS

I am far less likely to vote for someone who keeps professing their religion mainly due to the amazing amount of hypocrisy that usually accompanies it.

I agree 100% on the hypocrisy if they have led shady public lives before a profession of faith but if their history proves consistent and just I'll give them the benefit of doubt...

Originally Posted by Pewter'01SS

Murco, why wouldn't you trust an atheist, how many atheists do you think are in prision for violent crimes? I don't know but I'm willing to bet it is far outnumbered by the amout of christians.

Atheists are a smaller group in our society and it would make sense there are less of them in jails. I acknowledge that religious people have screwed me in the past and I know this sounds strange but at least I know that they recognise the same consequences (beyond man's law) that I do. Yes, I know it's hard to justify...

Originally Posted by Pewter'01SS

I have nothing wrong with people who are deeply religious but when they wish death of other people who, in their view, go against the word of God, thats wrong...

Oh yea, that's instant death penalty in my eyes as well. To have your brain so twisted as to think you are "doing God's bidding" by killing is indefensible no matter what religion you are....

[TexasF355F1]

Originally Posted by 97CamaroRS

Also I think myself that if a person cannot have morals without religion, that person needs to strengthen their mind and will. I don't think religion is a prerequisite of ethics and morals; you don't need an excuse to be a good person.

You know, I think hell just froze over because I agree with your statement completely.

[T4 Primera]

Originally Posted by Murco

I agree 100% on the hypocrisy if they have led shady public lives before a profession of faith but if their history proves consistent and just I'll give them the benefit of doubt...

But if they are a born again christain aren't all their sins forgiven

Originally Posted by Murco

Atheists are a smaller group in our society and it would make sense there are less of them in jails. I acknowledge that religious people have screwed me in the past and I know this sounds strange but at least I know that they recognise the same consequences (beyond man's law) that I do. Yes, I know it's hard to justify...

See comment above and add Catholic confessions to it. What consequences are there if it's so easy to clean the slate? AFAIK, there is only 1 unforgivable sin as far as the bible is concerned and it has nothing to do with interactions with other people.

Originally Posted by Murco

Oh yea, that's instant death penalty in my eyes as well. To have your brain so twisted as to think you are "doing God's bidding" by killing is indefensible no matter what religion you are....

Hmmmnn....ever read "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain?

[TRD2000]

i can't believe that anyone is actually still trying to say you have to have religion for moral and ethical fibre. that is complete biggotry!

that is a perfect example of why i would not vote for someone who professes religion while campaigning... would you want to vote for a biggot?

especially one who see's himself as better than you because he believes is something he can't proove, bit like santa clause.
having said that they still havent proven WMD in iraq... but bush has faith.